327327
(edited: )

It`s not only save&quit saves, it`s "faster mod". TCP/IP resets is faster, loading time betwen acts is faster, wp is working faster.

 
  WafuWafu

@327327 You might be right, I'm definitely willing to expand on the script's functionality if it's possible of course. The question is, how much time over a run do these things take, because some times might be negligible. But again, I'm willing to do changes if something is considered unfair.

 
  MrLlamaSCMrLlamaSC

What an interesting issue...

I can see ups and downs to both. A script sounds cool and would really help with things like tcp/ip resets, but that also would "invalidate" every current run since they all have load times. So everything we've done would be pointless in a way since they would all be reset. Also there is concern about the script/program crashing during the run. I've have my livesplit crash before and then had to go back and manually time it...with load times that could be awful...

Playing with -ns sounds fine but man...I don't want to play without sound. That is going to ruin my stream for a lot of people and to me is almost worth it to have slower load speeds (and a competitive disadvantage) just to have a better stream experience. Which kinda sucks.

I'm really not sure.

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

the script is a Livesplit integrated "Scriptable autosplitter" that a lot of other games utilize their own version of, so there shouldn't be a reason it would crash. I've been testing it and it seems to work

 
  Teo-Teo-

So... I have discussed this matter a little bit further with some people and came to following conclusions:

-ns has the goal to reduce the loading times as much as possible (almost to a point of removing them)
Therefor it would make sense to have a method to make no loading times a reality...

However this suggestion poses 1 fundamental issue:
If we display both the currently used timing method of RTA in one column and the new "no loadingtimes" method in a second column this will lead to the following problem:
"Do I care about no loading times" -> then I use the timing method for that
"Do I care about the RTA times" -> then I have to use -ns in order to be competitive

In conclusion that means the community has to make a decission on wether or not they want to be forced into using -ns to be competitive or using the no loading screen method in the future.

The No loading screen method has the obvious advantage of making the game more playable and watchable over the "forced into -ns" method.

However the big downside is: How do we deal with all the existing runs that all have the RTA method - Do we do a hard reset for everyone (basically retireing the existing runs) or do we check all of the PBs for their loading times - which is a huge amount of work that none of our mods can reliable be expected to do!

I don't think any one person can really decide this - I suggest an over all discussion stream on one of the upcoming Saturday evenings.

 
  MrLlamaSCMrLlamaSC

@blazer I just mean what if livesplit crashes. It doesn't happen often but I know mine crashed last week. I guess manual timing has to be done there but that would be hard to be precise. That being said, maybe that's just a risk we accept.

After more thought, I feel like we either need to go the script route for not counting loading (thus kinda refreshing the speedrun forums which kinda stinks even though it'll have a "-ns or script" tag) or we simply just ban -ns and consider it a mod to the game like -seed or something like -act5. I'm leaning towards the banning of it because then we just don't have to deal with all of this hassle and management of everything. People just deal with load times because they're a part of the game and everyone is on a level playing ground and is able to stream/enjoy the game audio. I think this is my vote.

MacroBioBoiMacroBioBoi likes this. 
  Teo-Teo-

My favourite suggestion is the following:

Banning -NS as a starting parameter
and
Add a second column for the no-loading time method

Then you can choose which you want to pick as your sorting method

LucaDupaLucaDupa and MacroBioBoiMacroBioBoi like this. 
  WafuWafu

@MrLlamaSCMrLlamaSC If LiveSplit crashes, I think it should be possible for you to start it again and press your start run key again. It would still remove the times, so you'd only have to append the time it took you to start LiveSplit again. That's how most of the games with IGT LiveSplit solve this problem.

And as you mentioned, it solves TCP/IP loading but it also does solve loading differences between different hardware setups.

And I can absolutely agree, refreshing the leaderboards would suck. Retiming the runs semi-automatically might however be possible.

 
  327327

Even if you ban -ns, make a separate category, 0 volume in settings will still speed up the game. You cannot force everyone to turn on sound in the rules to slow down the game.

 
  KanoKano
(edited: )

I think switching over to in-game time is definitely a welcome change, it will put everyone on the same level.

Having a second column for RTA might not be a bad alternative, but I feel like prioritization of in-game time would be a must if that were the case (maybe not to begin with, but after more in-game time runs were submitted)

Also I'm not entirely sure what to do about old runs, I feel like most alternatives have been discussed here. Hopefully there's a way for some automatic solution though. If not maybe consider retiming WR runs? or top 3? (Over a long period of time)

Really glad to see these changes being discussed though.

Also @Teo-Teo- I know you mentioned something about a discussion, but perhaps we could organize that on a Discord server where it's easier to gather people and we can discuss options over time rather than in one sitting?

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

---------------------------------
IGT vs RTA
---------------------------------
Llama brings up a good point with livesplit crashing -- re-timing can certainly be a hassle.
If my splits crashed during a run and I was forced to re-time my run, I'd be devastated.
I think it's worth the risk though.

If there is a livesplit script that can pause the timer specifically for the hang-time when you click "Save & Exit" I'm all for it. It would completely solve the sound vs -ns dilemma.

Personally, I think if we use IGT, the timer should be paused for two things:
1) "Save & Exit" hang time
2) TCP/IP loading bar
I'd be fine if it paused in the main menu as well (cause then I can pee).
---------------------------------
-ns with RTA
---------------------------------
I'm not going to use -ns even if it is faster. I won't enjoy playing the game.
For that reason, I probably won't compete in RTA categories that allow -ns.

KanoKano likes this. 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

We have a script that will allow you to:
use 2 timers in your layout
1 for the "real time" with load screens
1 for the "no load screens" time

the no load screens removes:
- All loading screens (Startting a char, Selecting a char, switching acts, tcp/ip loadscreen)
- Also the time between "click on save & quit" and the menu showing up -> while in the menu the timer runs again!

It is an easy set up of around 30 seconds or something like that and will be included in livesplit without any update on the program

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

I just tested the livesplit script for IGT. It's perfect.
The timer also pauses if you close D2 completely, so this is perfect for needing to pee.

I'm 100% on the IGT train. This will make speedrunning way more enjoyable for me.

In order to honor the people who have put in hard work with RTA, and to honor those who have come and gone in the past, I think it's important that the current RTA times are posted on the leaderboards permanently. Treat it like museum. Anyone that still runs RTA can still run RTA, and they can still submit.

That being said, I think we should have a brand new IGT leaderboard.
I'm gonna get the ball rolling.
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
I will no longer run RTA except for racing.
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
And that means I will always be 0/7 for RTA. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
IGT all the way. Let's go!

WraithulekWraithulek and Daz86Daz86 like this. 
  Bender_Bender_

@ -ns:
Is there even a reasonable way to ban it/distinguish between -ns + volume turned down? 327 got a point on that you cant really force people to use sound reasonably. Rejecting runs based on "loadtime too quick" seems not very satisfying (and too much work for mods anyways i guess)

@ no load screens-time
can people submit 2 times then? Not sure if i will care to, but i could see some (sorc)runners going for all the fastest times, which would be strange on the board if only one can show up.
Lets say I only care about RTA and beat the RTA on the leaderboard, but everyone knows someone else has a faster time that wont show up because their "no load time" is faster... would feel wierd

I dont know, our community isnt that big to begin with, we split on 7 chars, hell/norm, hc/sc, seeded/nonseeded and now RTA/noloadtimes? I feel like we split up way too much for the size we have

I would prefer to ban -ns and keep everything as it currently is.

MekalbMekalb likes this. 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

@Bender_Bender_ regarding the times:

yes, people can submit their runs with 2 sets of times and we can select a default time to sort all runs in the game by.
I would stick to our current timing as default sorting method, because if you sort by a timing method that is not set for a run that run will be listed on the bottom of the leaderboard, which would result in all current runs being listed below the crappiest that has a time set default sorting method.

If we end up going that way we will have an issue there:

There is 3 timings built into speedrun.com that can be used:

• (Real) time without loads - or - Real time
• Time with loads
• In-game time

By default every game uses the "(Real) time without loads - or - Real time" timing, which is the time that is currently set to all our runs.

If we enable "separate load times" for the game we will have:

• Time without loads (<-- the time currently set in our runs)
• Time with loads

This would probably be the more appropriate name for the times in my opinion, but would require to move the "Time without loads" times to the "Time with loads" fields of all the 1.7k runs that are currently listed.

The other option would be to use the "in-game timer" option, which results in us having the following times:

• Real-time (<-- the time currently set in our runs)
• In-game time

This would be the right way around and would not require changes to all runs, but is usually used in games that have an in-game timer, which D2 does not have. Also we would [probably] only pause the timer during loading screens and not while in the menu.

---

And @RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl: Regarding pausing the timer while not ingame:

I am strongly against that. That would not only enable people to take pee breaks, which is a fair point, but also it would allow people to take strategy discussion breaks, "map exploration with 2nd instance of d2"-breaks and who knows what else...
That kind of stuff belongs into segmented runs imo.

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@LaVLaV

I'm fine with the timer going during the menu.
I'm also fine with the timer going during my pee breaks.

Your strategy discussion and all that jazz will happen regardless of whether the timer stops during the main menu or not. Someone can just develop a tool to lock up their PC during save & exit, or during TCP/IP. As a result, people should be allowed to pause their timer simply by closing their game down completely. Or, by pressing escape in-game.

Other speedrun leaderboards have rules in place for your specific reason. There is usually a "grace time" that you are allowed to have the timer paused for.

https://www.speedrun.com/re2remake for example:
Submissions must contain all footage for the runs provided. Any missing footage (not counting cutscenes) could result in the run being rejected. Extended periods of time spent in the pause screen will also invalidate a run. (Limit 2 minutes per pause)

No matter what, this new timing method MUST have a rule discussing how long we can pause for. As a result, it just makes the most sense to allow someone to pause the time whenever they like (by either pressing ESC, or by closing their d2 completely); because ultimately, they WILL pause the timer whenever they like using any loophole they can.

 
  WafuWafu
(edited: )

@Bender_Bender_ Actually, there are games that require sound to play and it's very reasonable. It makes splicing runs much harder. Especially in a game such as Diablo 2, where splicing is super easy, it wouldn't be so unreasonable to require sound.

@RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl I personally don't like pausing the game for breaks. Surely, if the game is extremely long, then it's reasonable to include some time you can spend afk. But in general, the only reason why games remove the time when the game is closed is because of a crash.

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

I have no quarrel with not pausing for breaks. I'll pee with the timer running, or without it running. Regardless, the grace time is something that needs to be discussed. For example, what if a crash takes an hour to fix? What if someone does indeed lock their PC up during "save and exit" or during the loading bar? How is this regulated?

 
  MekalbMekalb

I would say I watch 30-40 hours of d2 speedrunning a week, because I think the game is pretty much perfect as we’ve been playing it. I don’t watch or play any other games anymore, and I watch a variety of d2 speedrunners. With that being said, I think it would kill my experience watching or playing d2 speedrunning with breaks. It wouldn’t feel like a speedrun to me having strategic breaks. It’s not something I would participate in, and in this case, I oppose it altogether.

Like I said before, -ns or putting game sound to 0 isn’t something I would participate in, but I still think it’s fair game. Something like -ns would be hard to police, and it is probably just something that we have to live with, even for those of us who don’t want to participate in it, or generally oppose the idea (me). I think switching clients between -ns and not is a bit shady, but I also think that’s okay. Hopefully -ns doesn’t leave sorc, however, but I wouldn’t be opposed if someone wanted to endure through this. I sort of see no sound and -ns as a fair part of playing D2.

As for IGT, I think I’d have to watch at least a few hours of it to get a feel of what I think about it. This concept is too new to me to know how it would work out, and if I believe it’s good for the d2 community or not. Someone would have to research what sort of time loss we get playing between different operating systems, etc., and find the root cause of why some computers have different load times to others to convince me this would have substantial difference between one runner to the next. I think we need some empirical substance to this discussion before this idea needs to be entertained.

I’m pretty old fashioned, so I don’t think I would necessarily participate IGT anyway unless it really is easy to set up, and for strictly normal load times (not pause timer during menu, and TCP/IP should absolutely NOT cause the timer to stop IMO, this is a gamble that deserves a time loss to it, because it’s not a native function of single player D2 LOD; or, my preference, ban TCP/IP altogether in speedruns, but that is probably a wildly unpopular idea).

HCGilboaHCGilboa likes this. 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@MekalbMekalb
it takes less than 30 seconds to set up and test, you can do it right now just by running livesplit and activating the timer control

edit splits ---> select diablo II lord of destruction ---> activate
timer ---> game time
start your run, experiment

MekalbMekalb likes this. 
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