Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  Seeded Category - Rule / General Discussion
  Teo-Teo-

Hello everyone,

after having a lengthy discussion on my stream yesterday I think it is necessary to add a way to redurce the grind that the top runners are forced into to compete by some of the currently evolving strategies.

For this reason we are willing to add new Main Categories for "seeded maps".

What does this mean?
Generally speaking: Every map that is being played has a "seed number" attached to it. Using the starting parameter "-seed xxxxxxxx" (x being the seed number) you can force your game to use this map seed on every new character that is being created.

Pros:
- You can play your Map over and over again untill you are happy with the result.
- You can share your seed with others to compete with them on the same map.
- You can try out the seed of others - They may be better?
- Removes the Grind for a random Map. (This is especially important for Streamers, which most of the Runners are)
- Runners can "practice" their strategies in this category to get prepared for the unseeded category. -> Increasing the skill lvl in later portions of the game.

Problems:
- The RNG gets really wanky if you play with an active -seed parameter in your game.
- How can we figure out the Seed number?
-> I know that third party programs like Maphacks and the Hero Editor are capable of doing so. But is there a way that is more convenient?
-> A simple Program that only shows the Seed on screen is needed.
- With an active -seed parameter, a lot of things go crazy in Nightmare and Hell.

It has been a long time since I have played around with -seed. I did that back when I was doing my 100% segmented speedrun. I am sure there might be a number of problems that I am not aware of.

For this reason I would like to open this Thread for discussion on these topics.
In Post 2 I will post a list of Rules that are open for discussion.

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

First draft:

Rules:
1) The Character has to be created with the -seed ####### starting parameter active.
2) Everyone is free to find their own map seed to use.
3) The starting parameter has to stay active
4) Timer starts on first movement.
5) Changing the seed is not allowed

Submission Rules:
a ) The Seed number has to be shared in its DECIMAL form.

Reason for the rules:
1) This is the point of the category
2) We don't want to force you into using a specific map seed.
3) looks like ppl want to have it active
4) Since the char creation process is a bit lengthy it makes no sense to make that the starting point of the run.

a ) Helping the verification process and giving people the chance to compete on your map.

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

For rule #3, honestly I'm happy either way -- Active or inactive seed parameter after character creation.

I vote for active just because it makes it cleaner to reset. I also think it's cool if people can search for maps that have idea shrine setups (e.g EXP shrine by WP). If the seed is inactive, it won't be an EXP shrine every time, and the power of using a seeded map gets limited.

I am also uncertain if monster groups become randomized if the seed becomes inactive.

For me, it just makes sense to keep the seed active for the whole run. Full embrace of the seeded feature.

As for hell runs, I'm a bit torn here. It doesn't make much sense to keep the seed active between difficulties because it screws the minimap up significantly in certain areas. I think for hell runs there could be a couple solutions, but I don't know what is best. I think maybe the easiest thing would be if players were allowed to keep their seed active and they could delete their char.map file from their save folder. This removes all the cached map data, so basically your minimap becomes blank again and you have to walk to uncover it again.

 
  kordikordi

Im not a speedrunner ( casual, long time bnet / SP player ), but i posted my thoughts on Ryu's discord :

Contents

1. 1
2. 2

[Hide]  

1

I think it would be cool to consider for seeded category ( if its possible ) running seeded map ONLY when you reach the jail ( you load your seed once you find the jail wp ). By that, you will minimalize the RNG manipulation and use all of ur skills as a speedrunner further in the run ( map reading, game sense, speed, knowledge in general ). When you will be done with lvling in jail, you go back to unknown maps, leaving the run with the lovely and surprising RNG along with your game skills. The only problem would be stopping the game to reset your seed, but you guys could agree to stop the timer while doing it.

[Hide]  

2

At the end of the day, I see it as FUN / SPECIAL category, nothing serious. The " true " or " official " d2 speedrun SHOULD RELY DIRECTLY on how d2 works - repeatability and randomness. You should use all your speedrun / diablo skills combined together to execute the run with the given RNG, not manipulating it in any way. Getting the run using seeded / known maps will cut plenty of time and reduce RNG by ALOT - maps are CRUCIAL and they determine ur lvling, they increase ur chances for potential good drops, they contain shrines. Maps > Your skill > finding good items > the rest. It all starts with good maps. They make everything easier.

Final words. To me as a viewer ( maybe a speedrunner in a future ? ), if we want to remove / manipulate some part of the RNG, we should do this as softly and gently as we can, so the run will stay very close to the true D2, without making it too predictible, boring, picky / fussy, fancy and too comfortable . Thats why I would prefer for this category to use specific seed ONLY for lvling early in game ( jail as example ), so the rest stays UNKNOWN and SURPRISING.

McGuire72McGuire72 and BokserKabatyBokserKabaty like this. 
  Bender_Bender_

I never played around with -seed, so cant really comment on what the better approach is (active/inactive) and where the problems are

I think its an interesting category and fun to explore, however i dont think the "grind to compete" gets solved by that, at least not for long. Once we have figured out the good maps, the grind will simply shift to stuff like "no hsarus from andy? reset." Or if shrines are random, grind out that xp shrine streak...

Basically with map-rng gone, you will now need heavy drop-rng to compete

91RelaX91RelaX, McGuire72McGuire72 and BokserKabatyBokserKabaty like this. 
  MacroBioBoiMacroBioBoi

Is a there a best resource to review what using the -seed xxxxxxx command actually does? I have not personally used it and if i could avoid reading through a bunch of old Diablo wiki posts, that'd be great.

I like the concept as a whole and think that it's a great addition to the categories currently available.

We should also hammer out the accepted naming convention so we're all on the same wavelength, not necessarily excited to add "UNSEEDED" to the already long Normal SC P1 Sorc/Sin/etc.

ex: A seeded run would be "SEED (xyz) SC P1 Sorc" vs adding "UNSEEDED" to every other run which isn't using the -seed command.

Daz86Daz86 likes this. 
  BokserKabatyBokserKabaty
(edited: )

I'm rather sceptical when it comes to map manipulation stuff and in my eyes it should be as little as possible so I agree with Bender and Kordi the most. However it can be an very interesting experiment so I would give it a shot. Won't participate in category most likely by my own, just curious what outcome gonna be.

In my opinion map seeding can make normal races much more playable if host of the race picks up some random unknown for everyone seed that spawns short tower next to the black marsh wp.

91RelaX91RelaX and LaVLaV like this. 
  91RelaX91RelaX

Sounds like something fun for races like Bokser just posted, for my part I wont participate either in a "seeded" category

CannonfodCannonfod likes this. 
  MekalbMekalb

I d2 speedrun because I love the huge swing in RNG. I like seeing underdogs having WRs because they grinded out the RNG. I also enjoy seeing RNG come together and seeing someone get the WR, or not getting the WR because of absolute BS. I feel like seeded runs will dampen all of this. The seeded category is not for me. Diablo 2, players 1 speedrunning is perfect in its natural state.

However, I think this category could be a game changer for some people, and will be quite interesting for some viewers. I support letting this category be apart of our community if some runners have dedicated interest in it, and it’s not an unfair burden on the mods. I sort of doubt there will be any real interest in the seeded runs though, outside of sorc p1 or px. Maybe limit to sorc only, or have all classes in the same category like pacifist, so it’s not a lot of empty categories like px and p8.

MoJlodosTbMoJlodosTb, Daz86Daz86 and 2 others like this. 
  RiznerRizner

Like others, I don't fully understand the difference between creating a character with -seed active and when -seed is removed after being created with it.

Can this be further explained? Without knowing the differences, I would think keeping the -seed in would be easier so you don't need to preload a bunch of characters or close/open the game every time you rip.

 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

The -seed launch parameter sets the RNG seed the game uses randomize things.

If you just create the character with -seed active and then restart d2 without the -seed launch parameter active you will play the game like normal but with a known map.

If you play with -seed you will see the same boss packs, the same shrines even the same item drops if you do the same thing.

I just used -seed to level a naked amazon in normal, so I use this as an example.
On this map (-seed 1980438300) if I visit Act 2 town -> Act 1 town -> Jail 1 -> Dark Wood -> Far Oasis I will always encounter the extra strong beetle pack and the bird pack next to the fire shrine.
If you spend some time looking you can probably find a combination that gives you 2 bosspacks and an experience shrine, too. This looks unusual and a bit weird but is probably more efficient for leveling than randomly getting 0-2 bosspacks w/o xp shrines there which you would see if you play without -seed.
(Timestamp 55:30)

 
  stasyszystasyszy

This will be a fun experiment. Unseeded runs might get a boost from the knowledge gained in this.

Ill give it a try, but i see the grinding for top runners never going away. If people think this map thing is a grind, wait until the item grind comes or even worse, my character got stuck pathing for 1-2 sec reset moments

 
  Bender_Bender_

Ok with what LaV showed here, I think I would prefer the seed command deactivated, otherwise it really comes down to 1. Create a blueprint 2. Execute that Blueprint as good as possible. For me that removes too much decision making

But i guess it comes down to what people want this category to be. A tool to avoid the map grind and keep as much randomness as possible. Or executing your plan with given RNG as good as possible

 
  stasyszystasyszy

Go all the way i think, if its gonna be a seeded run... you might as well make the category less RNG as possible.
This way people can show of their execution, preparation and their own seeded knowledge.

 
  Bender_Bender_

Well as i said, it depends on what people want. Grinding out the RNG for a competing sorc-run is painful (which is the mainmotivation for Ryus post I think), the chance for a jailsetup that works is around 1%. Now the question is how much control we want to take. As LaV showed, you can control pretty much anything (except drops?) with seeded active

For me thats too much control, but up for discussion. For me the argument pro-seeded is "sacrifice map Rng in exchange to not reset 5 hours to leave act1 once". Otherwise I`d like to keep the game as close to original as possible.
On the other hand you can go as hard as possible on what the seed-command offers, but then we are playing an entirely different game

 
  kordikordi
(edited: )

Thats why I suggested to use your seed ONLY when you find the jail waypoint, and after leveling - removing it. Indeed its different game, when we look on what -seed command offers, it breaks the D2's charm.

If we want to keep this category as close to D2 as possible, only the early leveling part should be " seeded ".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from one of the Ryus discord user : @KinkaraKinkara " I just did some tests with the -seed active on the LK superchests and I got the same pattern (magic ring, greater healing potion and X gold) every time over and over again. Now, you have to do exactly.... EXACTLY the same thing every time and the route can't be too long because I just ended getting different results every time. Same route and -seed command active ensures same drops from SUPERCHESTS! disclaimer: I didn't rest on monsters nor other poppables. ok. it works with poppables as well. so I'm guessing that if you get the same monster every time and kill it the same way (same number of teleports, same number of casts or hits same everything), monsters should drop the same as well
althougt I suppose if you kill a monster with 3 hits, the first one dealing 1, the econd one 2 and the third one 3, you'd have to do that exactly the same as well... idk how far do you need to go with it. "

KinkaraKinkara likes this. 
  JymnasiumJymnasium
(edited: )

There's clearly enough interest in this to make it a category. Do we just allow both types and separate the 2?
/e
Wait are there more than just 2 options for this?..

 
  RiznerRizner

Would you be able to change the seed partway through a run? Say optimal leveling then you change seed to really fast maps or find a close spider forest waypoint, then change the seed so it’s actually right next to flayer jungle exit.

 
  KinkaraKinkara
(edited: )

Adding to LaV's video, here's an example on reliable drop RNG with the -seed active:

EDIT: I should add a disclaimer that in different computers I got different results even with the same seed and the same char. Following the same route and getting the same monster spawns I got different drops in different computers with the same game version installed (both 1.14d)

 
  Teo-Teo-

I think it should be either of the 2 options
I dislike -seed active - but i will do some testing on how this would effect things

I am not sure how interesting this would be for px and p8 runners.
We probably could do both options (active -seed and inactive -seed) if we dont include px and p8 in those categories...

 
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