Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  Pacifist Leaderboard? (And Rules Discussion)
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

Quote

The main problem that I have with this discussion is it keeps coming back to "what is pacifist" even to the point of bringing up a collection of dictionary definitions. The rules for pacifist should be defined based on the mechanics of the game. So for determining whether or not a skill can be used by you or your pets based on the mechanics of the game:
-The skill cannot hit
-The skill cannot apply a bit rate (poison/fire wall etc.)
-Reflected damage/on taking a hit procs are allowed
-Breaking any of these rules during the run should result in the run being disallowed
-Must be done on /players 1
-Must NOT use a pre-generated map
-This is a 'Real Time Attack' run: The usage of "Safe and Exit" is allowed
-Timer starts on character creation and ends when Baal dies
That would make Telekinesis and Charge as movement/utility skills illegal.

Telekinesis could be treated differently while in town (wp/stash activation) as it cannot hit enemies there.

Your set of rules also ignores the mercenary and summon-problems

Also "The Skill cannot hit" does not really mean anything

 
  AlanVaultAlanVault
(edited: )

Suggested rules:

- You cannot take an action that will deal damage, make an enemy attack you [Taunt] or make enemies attack each other [Confuse/Attract].
- Reflected damage/on taking a hit procs are allowed. If an enemy takes damage, it was because you were attacked and damage was reflected or a "chance on being hit/struck" proc triggered.
- Telekinesis is allowed, but damaging an enemy invalidates the run.
- Offensive skills used for mobility [Charge/Leap Attack] are allowed, but damaging an enemy invalidates the run.
- Crowd Controls skills are allowed, except if they make an enemy attack you or attack each other. Bone Wall makes enemies attack the wall [not you], so it's allowed.
- If an enemy is attacked with normal attack due to the weapon switch glitch, the runner must leave the game and then continue the run. If the enemy dies in the same game, the run is invalidated.
- Breaking any of these rules during the run should result in the run being invalidated for the category.
- /players X is allowed
- Must NOT use a pre-generated map
- This is a 'Real Time Attack' run: The usage of "Safe and Exit" is allowed
- Timer starts on character creation and ends when Baal dies

 
  DrClicheDrCliche
(edited: )

@LaV

Thank you for adding the category and all the discussion you engaged in to try to make the category better. I'm not just saying that, I really feel like we had a productive discussion and the rules changed quite a bit (for the better) from my original formulation.

I think AlanVault's most recent rules are almost there, though I would adjust them slightly:

- You may not take any action that would directly deal damage to anything with a life bar [any attack, most skills, some shrines].
- You may not force something to attack you or others [Taunt, Confuse, Attract].
- You may not set traps for things to walk into [Assassin traps], nor use directly damaging auras [Sanctuary, Holy Fire].
- You may not hire anyone [Mercenaries] or summon anything [most summons] to do anything forbidden on your behalf, but you aren't responsible for the actions of fully independent NPCs [Flavie, Wild Barbarians].
- Thorns, Iron Maiden, Spirit of Barbs, "attacker takes damage", and "chance to cast when struck" are permitted sources of damage.
- Offensive skills used for mobility or convenience [Telekinesis, Charge, Leap Attack] are allowed, but accidentally targeting or attacking something (which Charge and Leap Attack sometimes do automatically) invalidates the run. Use at your own risk.
- Directly attacking or dealing damage, even an accidental attack due to the "bindings glitch", invalidates the run. Set hotkeys for "Throw" and "Unsummon", take care not to equip throwing weapons, and get in the habit of re-setting your bindings every time you equip or unequip anything.
- Crowd control skills that don't deal damage are allowed [Leap, Bone Wall, Decoy], except if they force things to attack you or others [Taunt, Confuse, Attract].
- /players X is allowed.
- Must NOT use a pre-generated map.
- This is a "Real Time Attack" run, "Save and Exit" is allowed.
- Timer starts on character creation and ends when Baal dies.

I think just an extra variable for HC/SC is fine. That's not the way other runs are listed, but it's just a miscellaneous category that's mostly for fun. If you prefer one way or the other, I have no strong preference.

@AlanVault

Bone Wall is allowed, but not because things attack the wall and not you. It's because mere proximity, in general, is not considered non-pacifistic. We, as humans external to the game, understand the that mere proximity will cause monsters to attack us (or Bone Walls we summon, or anything else), but the mere act of building a temporary wall in a shared space isn't necessarily non-pacifistic, and for the sake of allowing each character class to be unique and interesting in this category, we aren't going to go to the ends of the Earth looking for reasons why something ¤isn't¤ pacifistic. We are just going to say "Ok, this isn't overtly militaristic or aggressive, it doesn't deal damage, it doesn't taunt beyond the effect caused by mere proximity, it isn't an attack, it doesn't cause things to attack each other, let's allow it!"

@madinsane

Restricting pacifist runs to /players 1 makes them more tedious than they need to be. I know none of the other categories allow /players X, and many players view it as somehow impure (even though it's listed on the "Experience Basics" page on Arreat Summit), but it requires skill and judgment to use correctly, and significantly improves player and viewer experience alike.

 
  AlanVaultAlanVault

Just need to add that "Ladder-only runewords are NOT allowed," right?

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

Reading all this discussion and finalization of rules make me very excited to try this run again when I get back from my work trip!

 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

Quote

Just need to add that "Ladder-only runewords are NOT allowed," right?

nah, modifying the game is not allowed by default.

I still think other parts of the rules are weird, like the partially overlapping and partially missing skill examples or parts like

Quote

Set hotkeys for "Throw" and "Unsummon", take care not to equip throwing weapons, and get in the habit of re-setting your bindings every time you equip or unequip anything.

noone forces people to so that kind of stuff

but meh

 
  AlanVaultAlanVault

@LaV
"nah, modifying the game is not allowed by default. "

Yeah, but if someone tries to speedrun online and on ladder, they will be available.

 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

Is there anything thats ladder only and relevant? Probably "edge" on non-pala-chars, but that requires people to get an amn, 3 thuls, 9 orts, 27 rals (and a chipped topaz iirc) if we go by countess drops.

getting 27 rals from countess w/o spamming games (because bnet) and with unknown maps takes like 1 1/2 hours

add not being able to use /p8 and I doubt it's worth it

i would be fine with people using ladder only stuff if they are on ladder.

 
  DrClicheDrCliche

The "set your hotkeys" guidance isn't supposed to be a rule you must follow, it's just advice how to not accidentally attack things (which ¤is¤ forbidden). If you think that's confusing, perhaps you could put it in parentheses or add something like "to avoid this glitch, it helps to ..."

The skill listings aren't meant to be comprehensive, you could add "e.g." to the examples if you think that reads better. I think the rules as written are pretty straightforward, but examples are provided just in case people aren't quite sure about intent or interpretation.

Like, I can sort of understand someone asking "but can I use Holy Fire"? But once you say "no Holy Fire" I don't think any reasonable person will then wonder whether they can use Holy Freeze.

 
  DrClicheDrCliche
(edited: )

What do you folks think of adding a flag in the pacifist category to indicate minor rules violations, like those commonly caused by the bindings glitch? MrLlamaSC is doing a (probably WR) pacifist run right now that I personally would like to see on the leaderboards, but he accidentally swung at a few things, and also encountered a very improbable situation where he couldn't TP out of Diablo's bone prisons, so had to attack one of them.

I personally prefer being soft on the bindings glitch, but I got such opposition to the idea here on account of it being ambiguous and potentially exploitable and impossible to enforce that I just stopped arguing for the exception. Perhaps an "Accidental Hits" flag could be a good compromise to still allow those runs on the leaderboard?

 
  AlanVaultAlanVault

Players can avoid Diablo's bone prison by casting the TP far from him, so I'd say, if the player is stuck in a bone prison, he should leave the game, so he's not forced to attack. This kind of 'Chaos Sanctuary reset' would cost almost the same time as not performing the bestow mechanics properly (like if de Seis is bestowed by some other mage or himself and you can't kill him by simply proccing novas).

The accidental hits were discussed before, even in your initial rules (or guidelines), you suggested that the player should leave the game if that happened. I think these hits can be forgiven, as long as the player leaves the game without killing the enemy.

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

Yeah I think "if you hit an enemy, you immediately leave the game" is much better than "if you hit an enemy, the run is over"

However, "if you kill an enemy by accidentally hitting it, the run is over" can still apply since you would have accrued experience from it

 
  DrClicheDrCliche

You can easily make a mistake and not even notice, or fail to notice until it's too late to "fix" it, especially if you happen to be streaming and interacting with chat. If we're going to allow an exception, I think it makes sense just to flag runs with errors of any kind -- as long as the player isn't being intentionally exploitative -- rather than impose a weird penalty on the player that covers some situations but not others, or weirdly distinguishes between an accidental hit that kills and one that doesn't.

That way the purists can turn up their noses at runs with errors and filter them out, while people who are more interested in seeing how far the concept can be pushed (regardless of perfection in execution in the face of random BS) have a larger pool of entertaining runs to draw from.

At the end of the day, do we want runs like blazer-flamewing's and MrLlamaSC's to be on the leaderboard, available as a resource for people interested in D2 pacifist runs? (I do.) Do we want more people to try the run and participate in the competition, and not be turned off by the fact that one of the best players in the world tried it and "failed"? (I do.)

 
  DonForgoDonForgo
(edited: )

You 'could' in theory just add another sub class - Successful -> (Yes /No) in the filters... so we can see 'failed' runs.

I am now super intriged in running a necro pacifist...

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

Question -

Would using keyboard macros be allowed? it would be tiny amounts of time saved up over the course of a run, but for example having extra keys on a keyboard set to "[enter]/players 1-8 [enter]" instead of stopping to type it in all the time could be helpful - have one key for each player level you want to use. If not, doing it on the run and getting good at doing it at the same time as doing other things could also be good practice, I'm just asking the question because I know some people might find it useful and to clarify if it'd be allowed

 
  LaVLaV

@blazer-flamewing: I'd say that would make it a TAS and thus not allow it.

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

Another rule clarification question:

At the start of the run, it's pretty much the norm to set players to 8 right away. However, Diablo 2 has this feature(?) in single player mode in which it keeps the last /players setting used if the game has not been closed since you last used /players - even if you create a new character.

Would it be necessary to actually show that you typed /players at the start of each run? or can we take advantage of the fact the game remembers the last setting used? It can be implied that /players 8 is the start of every run at this point since we farm those chests for the first part of the run

Let me know your thoughts

 
  LaVLaV

i would just type it in the beginning of every run - its not like it costs any time and its important information for people that watch the video

 
  DrClicheDrCliche
(edited: )

To anyone who has ever submitted a pacifist run, and other interested parties, do we want to make an exception here to the recent base-game rule that forbids starting a character in Classic and converting it to Expansion?

MacroBioBoi: Allow conversion
DrCliche: Allow conversion
blazer-flamewing: Forbid conversion
Zutatensuppe: Allow conversion
Blixoxo: ?

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

I think adopting the base game leaderboard's overall rules is best and more consistent - why let some categories not allow Classic conversion but others to allow it? It was a meta for a while for a few categories to take advantage of drops but in my opinion it's not that big of a deal and you can still start a run without a Skull anyways. My WR run used it, sure, but that was just playing around with the meta and I'm fine with it not being allowed

the idea of using these ingame options to our advantage like this was fun while it lasted but if the community voted to not allow it, I think all relevant categories should adopt that choice

 
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