Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  Players x and Players 8 Speedruns
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

Hi,

LaV and I have talked a lot about how to implement the over and over upcoming requests of Players x and Players 8 as a category.
We have come to the conclusion that a leaderboard with subcategories for those is the only viable option. Which we now have implemented. Thanks to @fuzziboy who supported me in editing every single run (almost 900 runs in total) into the new subcategories.
For those that already have runs in the categories that have been added, feel free to submit them from now on!

We stick to the same procedure concerning the amount of checking that we do on each run. It is impossible to watch every run 100% to ensure there is no changing of the player-settings.
Which means we partially rely on you to report any wrongly assigned runs to us on discord, this forum-thread or via twitch.

I hope with these changes to the leaderboards we have met most of the recent requests about these categories. There always has to be some sort of compromise here and there is a way to compare the categories with each other by just switching between them.

For the future:
If there is any thoughts of new categories that you want us to implement. Please have an open mind that we might your ideas not because we don't like it but mostly because there won't be too many people interested in them. With the new system we can definetly fit in more categories if necessary.

Greetz Teo

ngBurnsngBurns, fuzziboyfuzziboy and 2 others like this. 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

Some additions to Teo's posting:

- Verification:

We'll check runs for most information you're providing us with:
- Class
- Gamemode
- Final Time
- It is also pretty easy to see it when the timer has been paused during the run.

We can't check runs for stuff that requires constant awareness:
- /Players-setting
- Other actions that would invalidate the run

---

- Variables:

We're sticking with softcore as default gamemode-value as it's more popular and usually faster than hardcore. Also it's the default setting.

We're have made /players 1 the default value as its (obviously) the most popular choice and the default setting.

We're sticking with the sorceress as default class-value for the main categories - it's one of the most popular choices and usually the fastest char.

We are now able to adjust default values of variables between different main categories and can individually decide whether they should be a subcategory or just a variable that is displayed. (Note: Look at the Pacifist category - it only has a class variable and paladin as default value)

---

- The Class Variable

You may have noticed that we are not using abbreviations instead of the full name for the class variable, that is because we did not want to have multi-line subcategories when we have more than one subcategory.

Currently we are using the abbreviations that are also used by the battle.net ladder (AMA, ASN, BAR, DRU, NEC, PAL, SOR) but there's also other options that would work:

https://puu.sh/zIOTj/8f0f1252b2.png

Personally my favourite option is the last one, but that is probably because that is what I have called the classes for more than 15 years now.

I understand that what you call the classes highly depends on what realm you grew up on.
As far as I know calling amazons "zon" instead of "ama" and the assassin "sin" instead of "assa" is a US-realm thing... 😛

Sooo.. I don't know.. the battle.net-ladder-abbreviations work, but I think they are pretty ugly.

If other people have opinions regarding this, feel free to comment. I'm curious to see what you think.

---
- Categories

Thanks to the changes it is way easier for us to add more main- and/or misc categories with other/different subcategories and variables now.

We are probably still going to take it slow, but if more people (like >=4 or so) start running weird new stuff we might throw it in as a category

We're up to 85 categories now. I'm curious to see how long it will take us to populate all of them. Looking at you Any% Hell Hardcore /Players 8 Barb!

---

- Rules

The rules are kind of a work in progress aswell. Some decisions have yet to be made.

- script to change /players-setting in /px runs
- rerolling the map (in normal) by entering&leaving a TCP/IP game

- LaV

 
  R-tikR-tik

Guess it’s time for me to start grinding a Hell HC P8 Barb 😉

 
  DelDel

Gosh Arctic, you really are crazy after all. 😱

Anyway, all joking aside than you so much for this and all the work that went into it. As a playersX runner of almost 2 years I've been really looking forward to this. ❤️

And I think that the currently in use one with capitalized 3 letter names works well and looks clear because it fits on single line.

 
  DelDel

I'm also going to assume that using macros is not allowed currently? I'm fine either way, but I have mostly created my pX macros for my viewers to know what my current /players setting is and doing that manually would be bit hard unless diablo interface finds a way to do it.

I'm obviously going to do my first official runs without, but it would be something that I'd like as an possibility (if it was only for changing the players) but it might be getting slightly on the grey area of using external programs even tho pretty much everyone has access to them and I'd be happy to share the ones I've created.

 
  LaVLaV

We still have to come up with a stance regarding scripts that type /players X for you.

Same with using a TCP/IP game to reroll the map while your character is still in normal difficulty.

I added them to my posting above

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

When I was doing the Pacifist route I had asked if macros were allowed for changing /players and I think the answer I was given was a definite no. But I wouldn't complain if it was allowed now. It can be hard to change it on the go, and can be argued that it is part of the difficulty of playing Px

 
  gravest0rmgravest0rm

Thanks! This makes me want to start running D2 again.

As far as using macros for /players, it seems like it would be unnecessarily difficult to actually enforce a ban. It would level the playing field (and simplify moderation) if some folks just made a macro publicly available then everyone who wants to use it could. It isn't something that actually changes the mechanics of gameplay.

As for re-rolling maps with TCP/IP games, I'd be fine if the rules went either way. I think there's a pretty solid argument to allow it, but it's not a hill I'd die on if other people were wildly against it.

 
  DelDel
(edited: )

The thing about macros is that doing the run without them is about just as fast as using them.

Since you can press enter and up arrow to scroll through previous messages you only need to type it once and then change the number at the end. Also if someone could figure out why it sometimes sticks through save and exit it would be highly appreciated. Sometimes it doesn't remember your previous message in new game, and sometimes it does and then it stays until you actually restart the game.

An for having the macros publicly available, I've already shared mine on the previous suggestion about pX I made about month ago (they're visible in the locked post at the bottom of the forums if you want to check them out).

But it's kind of an wall of text, so if macros will come available for pX runs then I'll just make a cleaner post for them. On the other news, my first completed pX druid run since leaderboards was 1:55, it's still quite a lot behind my 1:37 (so I'll try to get slightly better run before posting it), but I used macros for that run and small mistake early (that would invalidate it) in the run so I'll just have to get back up to my speed and break my own records again while following whatever rules we decide to go with. 🙂

 
  alnaln

Nice to see additional features were implemented.

But why couldn't pX/p8 have been simply under "Miscellaneus" tab? The old structure made much more sense. Now it's all over the place.
When Pacifist category showed up, it didn't clog anything up, only one additional button appeared. This could be just that - 2 additional options in the drop-down list near Pacifist.

And why not keep full class names like before?

 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

The /players x/8 implementation was done this way in anticipation of more categories being ran, requested and added (hopefully in that order). This way we can easily add more serious (e.g. 100%/100% Normal) and casual/fun/unusual categories (e.g. "act 5%", multiplayer bnet speedruns)

I explained the changes to the class variable in the 2nd posting - basically we had to use shorter variables in order to get rid of the line break - that would have looked bad and been confusing now that we have multiple subcategories.

 
  alnaln
(edited: )

Okay, thanks for a detailed answer. But why couldn't all those categories be under "Miscellaneous"? As in - you could just add any desired category in the dropdown menu but the overall structure stays the same.
Serious/fun categories only depend on the person being asked.

Pacifist category addition was not tricky to navigate. We had one additional button appear.
Now this, on the other hand, seems all over the place.
Been visiting here regularly for more than 2 years. Now this can be hell to find runs for new people.

 
  DelDel
(edited: )

Additional tabs make it so that you actually have to go searching for those runs and that reduces the number of people running the categories. I think that having challenge runs is fine being behind that, because people are going to be actively looking for those kind of runs.

pX however is a category that has potential of being faster than p1 and as a pX runner I hope that more people will be picking up the category. Yes, having multiple things to select from can be "confusing" at first but it works for now. My own suggestion was to just have a filter to hide different categories if you don't want to see them (which could've done from the drop down menu that says filter) and to just have them side by side on same list because even tho the routing can be different between pX and p1, they are still very similar runs in the end and are both basically "any% runs". p8 I think is more of an challenge run because it actually makes the game slower so I think that belongs to it's own category.

However my suggestion right now is to give this style a go. It's literally been there for 4 days so changing anything about it right would be bit pointless before even seeing if people like it or not. If you are looking for softcore p1 runs, literally nothing has changed about it except that the names of the classes have been shortened and that's the default suggestion for new players.

 
  DelDel

If you want to imagine how filtered pX would look like.. You can just go click the filter button, select show obsoleted runs and imagine there just being 2 runs per person if they run both categories one on p1 and second on pX. And if you don't want to see them both at the same time you could just hide one of them.

 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

Quote

Now this can be hell to find runs for new people.

From the main page the most it can take you to find your desired run is 4 clicks. I don't think that qualifies as "hell to find runs".

Also this way it is easier to compare results between different categories

Quote

p8 I think is more of an challenge run because it actually makes the game slower so I think that belongs to it's own category.

It is a separate (sub)category. It would not make sense to keep /p1 and /px as subcategories of the same main category while putting /p8 somewhere else.

//

I think the other thing you are talking about is keeping /px and /p1 as variable (and not subcategory), thus making them only selectable in the filter-dropdown-menu and keeping them both in the same list by default.

-- I think we can not do that at the moment, I have requested a feature like this in the past, but as far as I know it has yet to be added to the site.

 
  p_funkkp_funkk
(edited: )

Hey guys, great work on implementing this, really glad we've got the new categories, I'm definitely going to push on the pX runs just to see what's possible.

Having already done a lot of pX runs, here's my stance regarding macros for changing the players count: I'm inclined to favor them because it's a significant quality of life change that doesn't really detriment the skill factor of the run imo. It's not fun trying to type slash-players-x in the middle of battle, and the in-game up arrow save-text feature is already so close to what a macro would do that I don't see why not just allow them.

Also, for the sorc run at least, changing the players setting is such a miniscule part of the run anyway - the only time I do it is to change it to p1 to get max rune drops from normal countess, that's pretty much it.

There are valid arguments either way - one could argue we're trying to see who's the most skilled player, not the fastest typist, or one could argue that typing slash-players-x mid combat is part of playing this game... but then again they have the up-arrow save-text feature that's already so close to a macro anyway.

Imo: macros are a good quality of life allowance that doesn't detriment the "spirit" of the run so to speak, but, switching the players count is a fairly miniscule part of the overall run anyway (with my strats at least) that I don't really care if we disallow them, it wouldn't be a big deal really.

ps: I've got links for my pX strats, skillbuilds, and macros I use on my twitch page if anyone is interested.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

There's no reason to use macro for the players setting. I think it shouldn't be allowed. There is a way to kind of macro the players setting in game anyway. You have to spam your message for about 10 times and after that when you press the up arrow key in your next games the message will show up.

Here's a demonstration:

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

If there is a trick to permanently enable the "up arrow" method of repeating the previous message, then I vote that we should leave macros out

 
  DelDel

yeah, I tested it out. Pressing up and enter exactly 7 times made it stick and it works through save and exit or even creating new characters.

If you have to restart the game it will be gone so yeah it's doable that way. And makes macros not needed for changing the players.

However I'd still mention one thing in favor of using macros: I have bound a keybinding to them on my broadcasting software to show my viewers what my current number of players is which is part of the macro I've been using previously. And this just like d2 interface is only meant to give more information to the viewers, but if someone could figure how to make program like that to read the current number of players then it wouldn't be needed either.

 
  LaVLaV

If this uparrow-thing works reliably I think we should stick with the vanilla game w/o scripts

 
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