Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  What data are we allowed to see from external tools and where are the limits?
  [user deleted]

Diablo Interface already has many features that give small advantage to runners who use it. I mean I like the tool a lot and I use it as well, I'm just wondering what the limits are to the data we're allowed to see from external tools.

Am I allowed to modify it so that I see my exact experience and an estimate for how long it will take until I level?
Am I allowed for it to show what level my mercenary is?
Is it fine to add more stats that you can't usually see like magic find, dr, mdr and others? We already list fcr, fhr, frw so where's the limit?
It also lists the runes you have found. Are we only allowed to show runes? Can I make it list how many juvs I have in my inventory? Or how many keys I have left?

 
  LaVLaV

As @Teo- said somewhere else - the Diablo Interface is already kind of in a grey area.

It's hard to tell where said grey area starts and where it ends and so far we don't have a set boundaries. Some might say automagically keeping track of your runes, resistances and gold is cheating, others might prefer sitting in an airplane-cockpit with flashing lights that remind you to fill your tp-tome or a tool that reads the map seed and checks which path you have to take to 1-way the summoner.

Personally I prefer watching people who can play without all that fancy crap.

The Diablo Interface was supposed to be (and it currently is) a cool feature for viewers - as far as I know at least - so I'd say let's try keeping it that way. Once people start abusing this or similar tools we'll have to get rid of them and that would make people sad.
Try not to overdo it.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

As cool as it is I'd prefer if external tools that show data from characters would be banned since it gives an advantage to runners who use it. Or at least there should be clear rules as to what data we're allowed to see externally.

I'm sure there are ways to display the same data in a way where the runner doesn't see it. For example the way gear is displayed on stream with a Twitch extension.

I think what scares me the most about these tools is that it's possible to have an external tool that loads and reveals the map from the area your character is in. But this is still possible even when these tools are banned, so that doesn't matter much.

 
  Teo-Teo-

The goal of Diablo Interface and the twitch extension was to provide the viewers a way to see the important things in that happen in the speedrun.

As far as I know the twitch extension had a set goal to replace the interface completly (apart from the auto split function).
Unfortunately I haven't heard from the creator of the extension in a while. That's why we are currently stuck in a semi-optimal situation with a lot of programs running.

We can't control what people have displayed on their screens. That and the constant questions from the viewers for the items and current stats is the main reason why we allowed it in the first place. (My opinion)
I personally have the Diablo Interface running but minimized so I don't see it myself.

In my opinion the best solution would be all the current information from Diablo Interface moving into the extension with a way to configure which runes you are looking for without a fix output on the streamer display.
That way the runner would have to activly have his own stream open to view the stuff. As I said there is no way to control this stuff 100%. We can only limit it.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

Alright, my question is more about the data we're allowed to see externally. Clearly we're allowed to see all the data Diablo Interface provides since there are a ton of runs verified that use it. All of my runs use it. Is the data Diablo Interface provides the limit or are people allowed to modify it for it to show additional stats, items, levels.

If we do move to the Twitch extention showing the data does that mean from there on using Diablo Interface to show data is no longer allowed? What about all the current runs that use it? Will those be removed? Does that mean I should avoid using it already?

I tried to minimize the tool as well so I don't see it myself, but it freezes on the stream and stops showing any new data. How did you fix this problem? From my OBS knowledge it's impossible to capture minimized tools.

And yes you can control what people have displayed on their screens. You stop verifying their runs and people will stop using them.

 
  Teo-Teo-

You only can control what they choose to show you on the stream
You can not control what they actually have on their screens at home. Diablo Interface is out there and there is no way to make it disappear.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

Okay so what are the current rules about this? What data are we allowed to see from external tools?

There are many tools for Diablo 2 that can be opened separately from diablo 2 without being visible on stream. That doesn't mean we should all be tolerating them. When a runner gets caught using them the run gets deleted. Just like in every other game. Why can't we apply this for Diablo Interface?

Or if we do for some reason tolerate Diablo Interface then there needs to be rules as to what data we're allowed to see externally and I think it should be clear in the rules that posted runs allow such tools.

Looking at the current rules one rule is that "Must NOT use any modification of the game". Diablo Interface is a modification of the game. It changes the way character stats are shown and it also lists stats that you can't normally see. So any modification is not allowed, but Diablo Interface is okay? Why?

 
  PharaohLawnPharaohLawn
(edited: )

"It changes the way character stats are shown and it also lists stats that you can't normally see. So any modification is not allowed, but Diablo Interface is okay? Why?"

I don't really disagree with your main point about the hypocrisy of the interface usage. But, for the sake of discussion, let me propose this question: Do you think there is a difference between observation and modification?

The D2:LoD program is still running on your computer, functioning like it always has. Diablointerface doesn't cause D2:LoD to do something else. Diablointerface is the program responsible for doing other things. From a certain point of view, it could be argued that the interface is an observer and NOT a modifier. Lav's earlier 'airplane cockpit' scenario could even be argued as being within current the rules against modification.

 
  PharaohLawnPharaohLawn
(edited: )

Teo said:
"the best solution would be all the current information from Diablo Interface moving into the extension. That way the runner would have to activly have his own stream open to view the stuff."

This would still leave it open for someone to make an 'airplane cockpit' running 3 extensions that display every imaginable attribute on 3 other monitors for them to look at.

 
  PharaohLawnPharaohLawn

Here's my suggestion:

Mods designate a list of approved, PUBLICLY AVAILABLE programs that are allowed to be used. If someone wants to try to make an airplane cockpit, they can. But they can only submit runs with it if they make it available to everyone AND after the mods (humans using their subjective judgement) allow it. This is pretty much the same philosophy that sports leagues use to manage equipment. The officials decide which equipment is allowed.

I think this would be a good idea because it would promote development of new Diablo-related tools. This would be a good thing for everyone who loves D2 and wants to see it flourish, especially regarding streaming popularity. If we had taken the other approach (hard line against modifications) then we probably wouldn't even HAVE the tools we have now to be debating in this conversation.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

"Do you think there is a difference between observation and modification?"

I think Diablo Interface is a modification. It takes data from Diablo II and displays it in a way the base game never does. Disabling all the functions of Plugy, but keeping extra stats window (https://imgur.com/XowpzMV) would be considered a mod, right? But when we take the same idea, but display the data outside of the Diablo II window then it's considered an observation? They still do the same thing, they're just displayed differently. I would argue that Diablo Interface is even more powerful than Plugy stats screen, because you don't even need to press any buttons to see it. It's just always there (https://imgur.com/XO9BH28).

If it's considered an observation then my question still stands: what data are we allowed to observe from external tools and where are the limits?

 
  cellardoorcellardoor

d2 is one of the easiest games to modify, cheating is likely rampant on these boards, to suggest otherwise is a delusion, drop rates can be ever so slightly tweaked, mob density can be tweaked, a random mob can be set up to loot a lucky drop, i have no idea why anyone would take the leaderboards seriously, just have fun and don't worry about what others are using.

ioupainioupain likes this. 
  LaVLaV
(edited: )

PlugY is a mod and thus not allowed.
Diablo Interface is not a mod.

---

You are allowed to look at / display the data the current version of 'Diablo Interface' allows you to display. (plus the D2ID-twitch app, that enables twitch viewers to look at your gear)

---

In the long run this limit may change!

Personally I would prefer something easier as limit - something like "char screen and equipped items". That would be almost the same information that is currently being read/displayed by 'Diablo Interface' but would remove some things I am unhappy with (automatically adding FCR/FHR/FRW/IAS including stats from charms, automatically (and badly) tracking runes).

I do not want to force people into messy short term solutions. If anything I would want to have a proper long-term solution ready if I were to change something like this. Unfortunately I just do not have the skills to create the ideal tool.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

Thanks for the info! If this limit changes and stats like FCR/FHR/FRW/IAS are no longer allowed to be visible on Diablo Interface then what happens to all the runs on the leaderboard that used a version of Diablo Interface that showed these stats?

 
  LaVLaV

If the limit changes, the runs that are using older tools will be grandfathered in. We will not remove any old runs because of stuff like this.

 
Latest News
View all
No news
Recent Threads
View all
Thread Author
8man leaderboard
Last post
IndrekIndrek
2 replies
History of 8 Man runs - help wanted
Last post
BKSilv3rBKSilv3r
1 replies
Hell Barbarian Guide
Last post
blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing
7 replies
killing fire immune with fissure?
Last post
sanzeausanzeau
3 replies
LFM - Speedrun Group
Last post
clownbabydragonclownbabydragon
1 replies