Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

I think the Jail strats are really cool, and it is something I want to incorporate into my sorceress runs. I think it is and will be the WR strategy for a long time.

I'm not very excited about resetting my runs all day for 8 hours just to get the optimal jail layout before being able to actually start my run.

I propose that we, as a speedrunning community, consider trying out new categories.

1) Seeded runs - This one fully embraces the Jail WP strat
------
We can all start running maps where we're guaranteed the jail setup. We don't have to reset for 8 hours just to get the right map. We can use the jail strat, and we can choose to reset because of bad item drops, or poor execution, or other RNG or decision making factors that do not involve wasting a full day on re-rolling for a specific Jail WP. Using a seeded map, we can simply start with the Jail WP if we want, and we can focus on all the execution that follows. Everyone picks a seed they like, and when you submit a run, you submit the seed you used as well.

2) Battle.net style runs with PlugY - This one embraces true randomness
------
With a battle.net style category, we can bring this game back to on-the-fly decisions -- adapting to RNG over the course of a full run. It's no longer about re-rolling maps for a lucky WP + boss group and then finishing a run. It's about factoring in all elements of surprise and then adapting to your given situation. It's about making quick decisions, and dealing with what is thrown at you.

3) Challenge runs - something completely fresh.
Examples:
- "Kicksin"
- "Bowazon"
- "Zealer"
- "Fire sorc"
- "Poison necro"
- "Stealthless"
- "No mercenary"
- "No teleport"
- "No vendors"
- "Frenzy barb"
- "No save and exit"
- "No going back to town"
- "Rush to character level X on class Y"
- "Rush to maximum resistances on Hell"
The possibilities are endless! I am so excited at the thought of how fast everyone could be. The thought that we can have completely different ideas, and both go really fast. That's cool!

There is one reason why Diablo II speedrunning is so special to me. It showcases your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it somehow in a meaningful way that demonstrates some level of skill.

1) Seeded maps are interesting because it focuses on your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it to what is ALREADY KNOWN.

2) Battle.net maps are interesting because it focuses on your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it to what is UNKNOWN.

3) Challenge runs are interesting because it forces us to think in ways we've never possibly imagined. We're all going to bring something unique to the table, and we're all going to measure up and be like "hey that's really cool! I'm going to try that right now!"

With the current sorceress category we're running now, we're about to take something that is already extremely grindy and reset intensive,
- (Tal + Eth, exp shrines, good item drops, monster spawns, gold)
...and we're going to start re-rolling Jail WPs on top of that.

I watched Teo try it, I watched Indrek try it. I tried it. The magic ratio seems to be close to 1 successful attempt for every 8 hours.

We, as a speedrunning community, are about to move very far away from what I think a lot of us hold dear to Diablo II: tapping in to your knowledge base for everything you know about Diablo II, and giving it your best to be the greatest/fastest you can be at accomplishing "something". We're gonna lose this essence real soon.

Right now, that "something" we're clinging on to is killing Baal on a brand new character in an unseeded map. We tap into our skill-sets, and we get the job done.

But where do we draw the line? When do we say:
"Hey, this isn't about tapping into our skill-sets anymore."

When do we recognize that we're merely resetting over and over just to make a point that we can be one second faster? Where's the skill-set in resetting for 8 hours a day only to see that you've accomplished nothing? Where's the fun in it? When do we accept that it is no longer about giving it your best, and it's only about getting the chance for a "perfect run"?

My opinion, with the sorceress, it's about to be real soon. We're all going to be pushing for Jail WP + champions, and we're all gonna burn ourselves out doing it. For what? An arbitrary sense of glory?

Diablo II is a massive game, that requires a variety of different skills. Can we not all just all agree that it would be more fun to tap into our skill-sets in order to accomplish "something ELSE"?

Take a look at the points race that Indrek created on his website. Look at all the people that are participating. You're given arbitrary goals, and a set of rules, and you try your best to come out on top. Take a look at the Slash n Stash race we had. Look how many people showed up for that. A massive display of all the skills we have, and truly showing how good we are at the game by taking an arbitrary task, and saying 3..2..1..go! Take a look at the random commission runs I've been doing. Bender and I were just saying the other day how it would be really fun to go head to head in a Kicksin race. How many of you here also find these things exciting? It's like we're all little kids again and we get to take everything we know, plan, theory craft, and try to be the best we can be and enjoy a little friendly competition in the process. That is what speedrunning Diablo II is all about. At least for me it is. The push to optimize something that isn't clearly optimized. The drive to defeat the unknown. The ability to show off how good you really are at the game you love.

We're about to see the exact opposite with the sorceress. We're all going to take something we love, and burn ourselves out doing something that really doesn't mean much at all anymore.

"I'm really good at Diablo II, and I can prove it because I spent 8 hours every day for the last month trying to beat the game in 55 minutes."

You know what I say to that? "Yes, you are very good. Congratulations world record holder. I hope you had fun."

We can prove our skill in other ways that don't involve masochism. In ways where we all might enjoy accomplishing "something" a little more meaningful.

Old categories aren't going anywhere, you can keep grinding that sorceress until you're happy. But what about the rest of us who already had our fill? What are we supposed to do? Can we not try something new? Can we not compete in something that is fresh and unknown. Hell yes we can. We just have to embrace change. New listings on the leaderboard. That's all it takes.

I'd like to move towards discussing these categories. As a speedrunner, what excites you? What do you think would be fun? I've already said mine, let's hear yours.

WraithulekWraithulek, Daz86Daz86 and BurtReynoldzBurtReynoldz like this. 
  LaVLaV

1) Seeded runs:
I see where you're coming from and I agree that seeded runs can be interesting, but there is a lot to think about when you want to add seeded runs as a category:

Do you want to keep the -seed command active throughout the run? This would allow you to create characters on the fly but would seriously screw with the RNG.
The alternatvie would be to have pre-created characters or use a different d2 shortcut (with -seed active) to create characters.

The difference between keeping -seed active and not is significant. With -seed active you will encounter the same shrines/bosspacks most of the time if you play the same way. That would not only fix the map RNG issue but also remove the RNG in leveling.

Do you force people to share their seeds? (as a custom variable; this would require people to use the same number format (I'd do decimal since the custom variable is case sensitive) for their seed to be able to actually compare runs.

2) "Battle.net style"; PlugY
What does battle.net style have to do with PlugY? Why use a SP utility mod for speedruns? Do you mean "NG+" as in use items found previously?
People would just use hero-editored perfect rares and hsarus boots / death belt+gloves - idk, but it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Maybe I just don't quite get what you mean by "battle.net style" and which PlugY features you want to use in a speedrun...

3) Challenge Runs
Challenge Runs are fun, but if we add challenge runs as categories there would be infinite new categories with infinite new sets or rules to come up for. I think challenge runs are something fun you can do as a race, for an event or as... a challenge, but I do not think they belong here.

 
  hellojoehellojoe

About the seeded runs: I really like the idea of having the jail setup right off the bat, it would make it more interesting to watch as well, since right now I mostly watch sorc speedruns as a lurker, check in every 10 min and wait for the jail to happen before I actually start watching.

Does this mean the seed will persist throughout the entire run? That would take out RNG of maps and monster spawns for the entire run, which I imagine would result eventually in all runners using that one gg seed that somebody once found. Is it possible to a partially seeded run? Where you have the a starter seed for the jail and then switch to random again after act 1 or even jail?

BokserKabatyBokserKabaty likes this. 
  Dethklok1637Dethklok1637

1) Seeded runs: Could work if there was a seed created and distributed that contained that Jail setup, for example, already. At that point, I would suggest as Teo mentioned, forcing the runner to display that seed number while running.

If, however, someone is not using a seed and fishing for that setup, I can see where days could be wasted trying to get it. I likened that to Greater Rift fishing in D3 because it's conceptually the same. You want a map with a good layout and hopefully a decent mob mix so you can finish faster and execute a meta strategy. Many hours can be wasted and attempts can be total non-starters.

As a whole, I think that would lead to the first sub 1h runs because of the RNG manipulation.

2) PlugY Runs: I'm assuming 'BNET style' is just talking about how it brings down runewords to single player. In a true NG+ scenario where you start with everything and if the quests could just be reset, that would be a crazy thing to watch. If we're talking about fishing gear beforehand grailer-style, then it would come down to mapping and player ability. Also things that aim at meta gameplay, but altogether more interesting.

Hero editing is an issue here, for sure, but I don't think that level of modding should be allowed anyway. It would be easy to tell who edited something to be unreasonably good though. The runner would probably have to take a pause before or after and hover for a few seconds over every item to verify it's stats which brings up another aspect of it. How do you enforce that as a verification step? How many runners would just forget ti display something or submit to the wrong category? Something to think about, but probably solved with some primer rules.

If this happened, I'm sure a race meta would come out of it for sure, probably matching some very late-game builds.

3) Challenge runs: I agree with LaV on this one.

Overall, I think it would mess up D2 to have something like Super Mario World happen where there's like 100 ways to submit a run, and multiple separate game categories because there's so many.

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@LaVLaV

1) I would suggest that the seed is active. Shrines stay the same. Monster groups stay the same. People share their seeds when they submit their run, and the seed value is made public. Everyone else gets the opportunity to explore the WR seed and try to do better.

2) Battle.net style with Plugy
PlugY has a feature in the settings file that allows you to automatically reset the seed upon "Save & Quit"
This auto-reset feature mimics the battle.net lifestyle where you get a brand new seed every time you create a new game. PlugY simply allows us to do it in SP without needing to manually do TCP/IP after every "Save & Quit".

3) I agree that this can easily get flooded. I think it's important that, as a community, if we agree that it's time to embrace new categories, that we decide on an few initial challenge runs. Any additional categories should have to go through a requirement process (such as, three or more people need to DM the mods with a completed challenge run, and are now requesting a place to post their times so they can track the competition that has started).

I think there is room for challenge runs on a leaderboard. As long as people are running it and it's actively competitive between a few people, I think it's important that they have a spot to post their times.

@hellojoehellojoe
Yes that is exactly what it means. A seeded map means the monster spawns, shrines, and map layout are all predetermined. One exception is that some times monster spawns vary between classes. Another exception is that some of the mobs change slightly between difficulty swapping (e.g. Normal --> NM ---> Normal). To my knowledge, this second exception is very rare.

I personally would prefer the seed to persist for the entire run. I don't want to close my client mid run, remove the seed, and then continue the run. I'd rather be 100% on board with fixed maps, shrines, and monster spawns. It's cleaner. One active seed for the entire run, start to end.

HotJacobHotJacob likes this. 
  LaVLaV

regarding 2)

On the one hand you complain that regular randomized maps are too much rng and on the other hand you want that?
Also that's only one of many plugy features, most of which would have to be forbidden. Wouldn't it be easier to just have a mod that just adds that one feature instead of using PlugY?

regarding 3)

So have a monthly challenge where people donate towards a price pool that is distributed between the best times achieved within the month or something like that.
A one-a-month kind of thing is not that big of a deal, but I don't think adding literally infinite new categories to speedrun.com is a good idea.

 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@LaVLaV

2) It's not the same as regular randomized maps. SP currently PRESERVES the seed upon Save & Exit. This means if you find the Jail WP setup, you can farm it. With the battle.net style, it gets erased upon Save & Exit, meaning you CANNOT farm it. It makes it a completely different route.

As for PlugY vs using a mod with single feature:
If you know of a mod that does that, let's use it. I was just suggesting the idea of having an auto-reset feature upon Save & Exit.

3) Why are donations and prize pools getting involved here? Who said this is a once a month thing? If there is a "Kicksin" challenge category, anyone could grind a "Kicksin" speedrun whenever they want by themselves and they can submit their run to the leaderboards at any time. It would be the equivalent of how the any% normal category exists on the leaderboard , except there are different rules for kicksin%

It is not "infinite" new categories to speedrun.com. It is adding only the amount of categories that become ACTIVELY competitive. And we can use a screening process to verify that it has become competitive. For example, 3 or more runners start doing it, and are updating their times on Discord for example. If its something they're grinding for months and months, it should be something that gets more exposure on a public leaderboard, IMO.

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

"1) I would suggest that the seed is active. Shrines stay the same. Monster groups stay the same. People share their seeds when they submit their run, and the seed value is made public. Everyone else gets the opportunity to explore the WR seed and try to do better."

Absolutely this ^

what I like about the possibility of Seeded runs is there can be a different kind of seed setup for different characters, normal and hell.
It could also mean, what if we find a seed where jail setup isn't necessary? Where champion fallen packs show up at every corner along the way to Andariel for example, and Champ Beetles at every corner in act 2 and suddenly you're 18 at the same time you'd be 18 with jail strats, but now you're halfway through act 2.
There could be a bounty put on such a seed. Runners who are pushing hard for this category could instead push for looking for a perfect seed, rather than a random seed that could be lost forever if it had a chance to be exceptional. And it could be a community effort, too. Anyone who thinks they found a really good seed for runners to use could share it. There could be a thread for sharing seeds, with clear rules about sharing them (make sure they are described well in the thread) with the current meta(s) being sticky/at the top

3) Challenge runs are a fun idea and always have been and make great events and races, but I agree don't belong on these boards. The one exception was Pacifist, which is a category many games feature on their boards or subgame boards because it is a common goal across speedrunning. Another challenge I could see being a category because it is featured in other games is All Characters, which is a hell-length speedrun that has a lot of possibilities for optimization and new challenges for runners of this game.

2 and 3) Speedruns that utilize something like Plugy to work will need clear rules as to what is and isn't allowed during the run and how to properly enforce them, if they were to be on the boards. Verification of runs is difficult for mods to do with the length of most runs, it would be moreso difficult if mods had to be 100% certain someone didn't use the Reset Skills button that Plugy features, for example

 
  Bender_Bender_

I think challenge runs, while being fun, dont belong on the leaderboards, because you can literally do 10000 categories. If something gets popular enough, maybe, but I think the interest needs to be proven first (lets say 10+ people that want this category)

@BNet-Style/always new map
That one would be interesting and a nice way to get away from the "farm one specific spot"-meta. I like it.

@Seeded
I already posted my opinion on that in the other thread. But since we dont want to mix it in our current Maincategory, you still need to do that grind there. I agree that the sorc-grind is at a point where it is not very fun
In the end, you can always grind RNG, seeded or not, so longterm you end up with a insane RNG grind either way. Non-seeded you grind for the map. Seeded you grind for that 65fcr +3 nova run

 
  KinkaraKinkara
(edited: )

I understand now, after reading, what's being discussed about the seed. I always thought that -seed% would mean that ONLY the map would be the same; I didn't realize that every single thing one can interact with in-game would be affected as well as the map features, but I get it now.

If the reason Blazer said about Pacifist runs is the reason why it was added in the first place, then the whole -seed controversy wouldn't have a place for discussion any more, as it's an analogous case with the Pacifist category, since it "[...] is a category many games feature on their boards or subgame boards because it is a common goal across speedrunning".

I think the "Save & Exit gets new map battle.net style" category is an interesting way of removing grinding for exp at certain points of the game. I think it's in it's nature a less reset heavy category since you cannot find a good map and stick with it and I also think it creates a more linear approach to the running strats, since there wont be a place you can rely for exp; you'll just have to go... although it might just shift leveling to different areas of the game like Flayer Jungle instead of Sarina or to later points in the run like Eldritch and Pindleskin since you wont have any trouble finding them.
Although I don't see Plugy being implemented for this since I think it'd be too difficult to check for hacks and cheats, a much less invasive mod that only changes your seed to a new random one uppon Save & Exit and nothing else... it still needs to be made but, in theory, it dones't sound too bad.

 
  stasyszystasyszy

Diablo 2 is a Great speedrun, for hell runs mostly, Because it is a combination of speed, maps, monster spawns, stratergy and items that makes this entertaining to watch.
Its up to the people to ask themselves so i want grind out WR? (which can get repetitive and boring) Do i want to be entertaining? can i do both?
i dont mind seeded runs, but i do like the fact that the maps are random seed in Any% category. Entertainment streamer or a (best overall)world record holder, rare to see both in any game and very unlikely.

It is upto the streamer to be having fun or not on their stream while speedrunning, I believe that thinking by reducing the base RNG of the game will not help with this. Outside game modification should only be in NON-speedrun leader boards. Otherwise you go down the slope, of well we got seeded maps, why can we not just start with a made stealth as well, if we start with a stealth can we also not start with a +3 to charged bolt staff instead of a fireball staff etc..

All my opinion, from life experience mostly on how similar things ive seen work. Anyways thanks for reading

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

There are seeded category speedruns for some games that also have seeded generation. Minecraft, for example. They find seeds that are perfect for that particular category and grind out the execution portion of it to get WRs

 
  AcaranAcaran

Many people here seem to misunderstand the PlugY portion. The reason that PlugY is mentioned at all is because it allows you to make map seed reset after each save and quit just like on battle net. That is the only reason. If anyone develops a mod that does just that, we don't need PlugY. No other features would be used.

 
  RiznerRizner
(edited: )

For both 1 & 2, I think they can exist and if enough people run them; a category could be created. I don't think either of these should replace the existing any% category, but I don't think you're pushing for that anyways.

1 - Seeded Runs: I wouldn't find it as interesting after the initial runs/races, but I think it would be a good category to have as a more 'traditional' speedrun; less RNG and more game execution. The seed would need to be included in run submission (for verification and to allow others to run against it).

2 - Battlenet/PlugY force resets: Would this allow just running on battlenet (including the extra hurdles of realm down and lag)? I think PlugY would open up a ton of questions (shared stash, ladder runewords, etc) so it would have to be very much defined, while if we just created a battlenet category (or tcp/ip category) it would make this easier to do without as much overhead.
I could also see PlugY being its own game in here with its own categories, as it adds so many options.

3 - Challenge runs I don't think need to be tracked unless certain categories have a ton of people going for it. I don't think the participation is high enough to warrant any of these (at least as it stands right now)

Overall, as long as any% still exists, any of these other runs can as well. pX and p8 have been added and I think have a lot of room to grow, and that's ok.

But you don't need to go for every single category, and if any% p1 sorceress is too reset heavy for you to want to do it, that's ok. If you don't want to push for p8 necromancer WR, that's ok too.
If everyone in the community switches to doing seeded primarily, that can be the first displayed, and you can still have any% for others who push in that category.

 
  AcaranAcaran

@RiznerRizner you can individually toggle all PlugY features. It's not a problem. And I don't see why you couldn't play on battle.net as well.

 
  HotJacobHotJacob

Hey everyone,

Before I go into my opinions on each topic introduced by Ryu, I would like to explain my personal feelings about Diablo2 speed runs. Most of us who love watching and doing speed runs have seen games come down to a couple seconds between new records. We have seen games pop in and out of relevance for speed running because of this. We have to ask ourselves, why do we enjoy diablo2 speedruns so much? What is the deeper feeling when speed running this game? The answer, for me, is RNG.

Most speed runs aren't randomly generated maps with randomly generated creature, dropping randomly generated items. Think about that for a second. Diablo2 is literally one of the best examples of having to speed run into the unknown, and that's amazing. You don't know what you're going to get and that's why we watch and run diablo2, imo. When someone gets an item drop or the perfect wp spawn for your runes? The excitement begins.

So.

Seeded maps take away from this for me. They take away part of the randomly generated world we play across. At what point does the best seed become the only way to speed run? I know for a fact that once a amazing seed is found, it will be the only way to compete for the best time.

So make seeded maps a separate category.
Being the WR holder for a seeded category is just as cool as holding the WR for non-seeded, imo, but cutting out the whole RNG of map and creature spawn just hinders what makes this game an amazing experience for runners.

Refresh on maps using plugy. I think that's great, I think this community holds so many people, someone may be interested in making an app that can just change the seed on save/exit.

As for having challenge runs, I agree with the many saying that it may create too many variance within speedrun.com for the game....however....where do the people who find it intriguing go to do this then? Are we stuck to a single streamer, or branded discord for these runs if they become popular?

Sorry for the long reply and rambling in the beginning.... but diablo2 has always been my favorite game and the speed running community surrounding it is very meaningful to me. To see the game stripped of what makes it the most fun to watch (RNG) would be horrible to me. Again, let people have their seeded map runs, just make it a different tab.

 
  Teo-Teo-

As mentioned a couple of times already:
The goal is not to replace the currently available categories. Those will remain the main categories.
We are planning to add them as new Main categories next to them.

Dethklok1637Dethklok1637 and Daz86Daz86 like this. 
  Daz86Daz86

Ive only submitted a few runs but have been trying to run this game on and off for 2 to 3 years or so now. My submitted times dont reflect this. Long story short i have had kidney failure for the last 5 years. spent 3.5 of those on dialysis, nearly died, have since had a transplant and other procedures. From the dialysis I have nerve damage in my hands and legs and cant sit at a computer for more than 2 hours or so.

Hence why personally I really like the idea of seeded runs. i cant play for 4 or 5 hours a day to wait for the right rng run to happen. i try once every few days for a good ish run and thats it. With a seeded or even the battle net style runs i can try to compare myself against other runners without also competing with other runners time investment and availability.

I dont think adding seeded will take away anything from the current categories, if anything we might see new runners. Right now is a great time to be a D2 runner and also a viewer.

Just my 2 cents.

HotJacobHotJacob and KinkaraKinkara like this. 
  RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

Regarding battle.net / PlugY

Indrek found a mod that re-rolls maps when you S&Q in 1.14d. So, we can avoid PlugY all together.

Daz86Daz86 likes this. 
  KinkaraKinkara

Can you please link it, Ryu? Thanks.

 
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