Chip 'N Dale: Rescue Rangers Forum  /  Consider modifying/changing the rules?
  Neural89Neural89
(edited: )

What I hate the most about this game is waiting for the demo. This is the only reason why I don't want to run cnd1, it takes too much time for every reset. But nevertheless I am against save states, because it's like a turbo, something that never was on the original console. Even if save states will be allowed, my conscience would not allow me to use them, lol. 🙂
I've seen a few people just use rewind, but that's even worse imho.

MagicKMagicK, TheTerrificTracyTheTerrificTracy and 2 others like this. 
  LiqquifyLiqquify

I dislike the idea of waiting 16 seconds, but using a save state to start a run doesn't feel natural for me, is awkward, cuts the continuity of the run itself, and like Neural said, is something the original hardware doesn't include. I run the game on its original cart, and I'm not bragging about it or looking to get credits for that, but that's commonly referred as the "optimal way" in many game leaderboards to do runs, and this new rule would exclude people that run the game this way.
That may sound greedy, but even if you guys decide to change this, I'm not gonna use it personally.

I imagine the WR runs that were done on emu, showing "State 0 Loaded" after every unsuccessful run, and I say to myself "Hmmm... no".

Also, I think a lot has been achieved in this game with the rules we're actually using, and is "a bit late" to change them now.

MagicKMagicK, TheTerrificTracyTheTerrificTracy and 3 others like this. 
  hirexenhirexen
(edited: )

I was always trying to adhere to the general rule: don't allow anything, which is not possible to do on the actual original hardware with the original cart and original controller (brick or dogbone), even if it doesn't have influence on run itself. Current way of handling CnD runs falls into that area, which although technically doesn't makes any difference, you have that advantage of not waiting 15 seconds over someone playing on the original cart. Those seconds may have influence on mental aspect of the run , game forcing to wait a little bit evertime can make someone more frustrated or sometimes giving you time to calm down between attempts, so generally, it can work both ways, but it's definitely additional potential factor.

As for most people not showing demo on the video, that's not true. Many people follow this rule and you are the only one with sub 10, who provided video without it, so I admit that's my mistake and overlooking. Besides, I usually remind people to always show on video reset from previous attempt or at least from the main menu (especially, when they started getting good times). That helps not only with checking, if someone used save state in some game, but generally if some easy ways of cheating were used on emulators.

Taking that into account, I would opt for leaving it as it is and make everyone run this game fully in fair way as it's possible only with full original setup. Besides, the time, you have to wait, is not any substanial one. In fact, it's just 15 seconds in 10min speedrun and in many other NES games you have to wait that amount of time anyway, before actual run starts. However, of course, let's hear other people point of view as well.

By the way, since till today, maybe, sense of this rule wasn't fully clear, all the runs, which don't show demo on the video (not that many of them actually) or even people explicitly admitting, that they used save state like Dave will be left untouched, cause it doesn't give any advantage in terms of pure time results. However, as mentioned, that's not the only factor, mental aspect, which game can have influence on, is important as well, so all new submissions without demo proof will be rejected and runners will be asked to resubmit it with proper video (which I was doing earlier usually anyway)

MagicKMagicK, TheDanielRivasTheDanielRivas and 5 others like this. 
  EndySWEEndySWE

I'm with Hirexen here. On pure principle I don't want runs to start from savestates no matter what game or if it actually affects anything.

beerfullofbellybeerfullofbelly, TheDanielRivasTheDanielRivas and 2 others like this. 
  junkyard_davejunkyard_dave
(edited: )

Huh? Just to make it clear: I never started any runs with a savestate, ever, this game or otherwise. I even ran this before posting this yesterday a few times, had a 9:55 and 9:58, and if you check the VOD I waited during demo mode like everyone else. I've always waited, I just meant when I export stuff to YouTube I get rid of the last reset so the run just starts from the title screen.

Even though it affects nothing, I can't respond in any kind of way where I can refute it wouldn't be unfair to someone still on a console and real cart/not Everdrive. It does give an advantage over someone with that kind of setup who physically can't load a savestate, so I guess there's not much else to say there.

 
  OverswarmOverswarm

There are three main questions that need to be answered:

1) Where does time start?

2) What advantage would the change provide?

3) Are there any potential hidden issues that might surface in the future?

1) Timing generally starts from power on, from first input, or from control for every game. There are few exceptions. CnD is changed drastically depending on which style would be used and the RNG lock essentially is cutting off 16 seconds of time due to manipulation. In principle this is bad -- you're "playing" the game at this point but the timer isn't running even though your actions are influencing the outcome. In practice, this is good because the game is somewhat improved from this. This is an opinion, but I think it's a pretty universal one at higher levels of play.

2) The only advantage a save state would provide is the 16 second time save. Looking at Xray's attempt counter of 3232 and assuming at least 3000 of those resets were after the 16 second wait, this is 13 hours of his life he has used on the start screen of Chip n' Dale. That is not insignificant, but it would also be only 200 resets after zones B and D, so I'd say over time the 16 second wait is a time save given non-save state starts. Starting from a save state would still be a large quality-of-life improvement.

3) This is the big one. Chip n' Dale was played hundreds of times before people discovered the RNG lock. It is entirely possible that at top level play there is a superior RNG seed, odd glitch, ACE setup, etc., that could be set up via save state and we could be entirely unaware.

Given that the 16 second wait is probably a time save over changing the starting time to "power on" and the potential issues we could run into with a save state start, I think the existing ruleset would be fine.

I do think that a "no RNG lock" category would be a good solution if there was a desire for one.

I'm generally not one to make decisions based on principle so I like these kinds of questions, but I think starting from a save state will almost always have a negative impact.

Now Solstice starting from save states to save time...

 
  junkyard_davejunkyard_dave
(edited: )

Yeah, 13 hours is painful (thanks for the math), and I'm definitely of the mentality that it's very unnecessary considering again it doesn't actually do anything because you're not changing anything before the run starts or influencing anything in again any possible way, but even saying that, this game has been bottlenecked I think to some capacity (until some "new" manipulation is found that supersedes demo mode RNG), and proposing a separation of categories would probably not be the best outcome given the fact a RNG manipulation was later on found to exist.

I remember Endy explained it to me a long time ago, and he said there was no real reason to ever go back and run against the RNG UNLESS you went back to run for a certain spaceship kill. There's a RNG spaceship kill that saved 1.5 (I think?) over the current demo mode spaceship kill, but I'm curious what the other bosses patterns would look like, as every other boss, minus the E boss anyway, is extremely favourable in the demo mode RNG. Anyway, point is, you would be grinding for a certain spaceship pattern running against RNG that rarely shows up, and might lose time on the other RNG bosses as demo mode bosses/patterns have been optimized so much and are actually good patterns, so I'm not even sure running against RNG with how optimized the rest of the run has become viable even if you wanted to save time that's not currently possible within demo mode.

I think at that point, competitively, I doubt many people would run it. Endy is remarkably good at pushing and forcing strats and even forcing/grinding good RNG on others in other runs, and he also told me a while ago he wasn't that crazy to try to make the RNG spaceship pattern appear. So I feel the category would be added to be more meme-like than anything, people just wanting to see what kind of times they would get running against RNG, opposed to competitively trying to beat the record with a certain pattern not accessible within demo mode itself. A huge draw now (which wasn't there originally) about Chip & Dale is literally just that: there's no RNG, plus it would cause an unfair advantage if someone who knew how to run the demo mode RNG, ended up getting the demo mode RNG from a random start input running the "RNG" category.

Chip & Dale has a great board as-is with how competitive it is and how healthy it is in terms of people submitting runs to it. I wouldn't personally like to see that divided myself.

MagicKMagicK likes this. 
  hirexenhirexen
(edited: )

Sorry, I misinterpreted your words. You just meant, that you cut demo from video not that save state was used. Anyway , not only for CnD, but generally for any PB video, it's good to show run right from the start from main menu at least or if possible, even better, from the previous attempt (which is usually possible). That is general decent proof, that nothing was manipulated with e.g. save state, but only manually and you show full game right from power on/reset.

It seems, that people generally do agree so far with not allowing save states at all, since it's not completely fair or just doesn't feel right, so definitely will leave it as it.

As for , where to strat timing, starting from power on has its assets, but I've never seen that approach in any NES game so far. Generally, people tend to set the starting point on the last input in main menu (my preferable way, so that any initial cutscene skip is already part of the run) or when the character control starts. One of the reasons against starting timer from power on (besides historical one) is just that it would be very inconvenient to start timer manually especially on real hardware.

'No RNG lock' category doesn't seem that bad idea, but in my opinion it would go to 'miscellaneous' at best, if there is enough interest. On the another hand, that would mean moving some very good times (which people put serious effort into) from main category including 2 sub 10 runs and footdive's sub 10 being first ever sub 10 achieved. Additonally, there is very slim chance of getting slightly superior spaceship pattern without RNG lock, so if someone is crazy enough, then can try to beat current record without locking RNG.

MagicKMagicK likes this. 
  Baras441Baras441

I like C&D 1 speedruns and waiting for RNG lock is not bothering me. Generally speaking I don't like to do early resets in games and this 16 seconds is like a small rest between runs for me. I bet other games have unskippable cutscenes on restart or long score counts - it could also be a simular place to rest at the start or in the middle of the run.

 
  CypherinCypherin

If my opinion counts, even though I don't actively run this game (PB'd recently thanks to Big 20 to a 10...22, I think? I need to highlight and submit), I think savestates should NOT be included, for the fact that something new could crop up tomorrow that no one has considered nor tested.

Taking for example Metroid and how different consoles have an impact on patterns. Has something like this been tested? If someone tells me this has been tested - ok then, I'd like to know what other tests have been performed. There feels like there are unknown factors that can come in, for any game, when you're not playing on original hardware/actual cart/flash cart vs emulator non-original hardware etc., and I wonder if someone can truly say "it's all been tested". So I opt out of the use of savestates, to keep it close to "even enough" ground for everyone. To the point of the RNG lock vs RNG non-lock category, and contrary to "even enough ground", I vote to have a non-lock category.

If the non-lock is a miscellaneous category, that's fine, as most people seem to prefer the RNG lock. Sure, I can get salty when I die in a run due to RNG, and I love execution/skill-based runs. But when the RNG lock was found, for me personally, it sort of took the "wind" out of the run. Imagine, there's a grand race across an ocean, and somehow the weather could be manipulated to make the wind blow in the direction you always want. That's nice, but it takes away from the innovation of the routing that could happen, as everyone will race the same from point A to B. I'm all for execution and skill-based runs, but when it's there from the start, not manipulated by outside means.

To be clear, I respect the runners that have obtained their times with the RNG lock, and I like the RNG lock myself. But I would really love to see someone get that time that's potentially faster than the RNG lock category, knowing they braved the wild and crazy ocean despite what was thrown at them. It could take forever and a day to get there, fair enough. But I think the option should be allowed for someone to go for it and get that time.

MagicKMagicK likes this. 
  CypherinCypherin

Sorry, it's 6am, haven't slept, and I just really read what people typed before me, realizing I should've saved myself trouble and typed "I agree with hirexen, Endy, and Overswarm on various points". I need to load the "in bed and knocked out" savestate.

LiqquifyLiqquify likes this. 
  EndySWEEndySWE

Uhm. Not that it really matters in this context but since this thread got some attention and for those curious I can clarify what the benefits of rng lock are. the timesave from the very best spaceship rng is less then 1.5 since you basically only save time on the very first hit which can be done faster (I have to test the exact save, I think I still have a savestate with optimal pattern somewhere). With the current NO-RNG kill all the hits are more or less done on first possible frames when his iframes run out after the initial one.

On the other bosses there are no timesaves at all. Robot used to be potentially faster/"easier" with a random pattern if he went out past middle of screen since it was free double hits. the rng-lock strat would kill you if he gave you that pattern so if you got the rng lock pattern you would loose time. However with the rng lock he never goes out and you can get all hits perfect.

With bad luck on fat cat you could get a puff of ash right in the face when picking up the ball so the RNG aspect could basically kill the run at the very last seconds.

The RNG lock also prevents extra flies from spawning on some stages (these can be avoided without loosing time. RNG lock just makes it easier) and it also always enables the crab despawn in H (not getting the despawn is a small time loss).

My best run before RNG lock was 9:54. 180 IIRC. However there are new strats since then. Main timesave being the implementation of the new axe strats in J which saves a big chunk of time. Some of the new strats might never have been added if rng lock wasn't found since most of them are fairly risky and a few stages in and the amount of runs getting out of spaceship was like... I dunno... 1 in 50? So you were not super happy risking the run doing something stupid by then. Nowadays with no RNG you can go ham.

So in conclusion. The only (known) part to save time without rng lock is on spaceship.

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