As it stands, All Red Berries (ARB) has its simple goal of being a berry-oriented run hampered by its requirement of getting the first four hearts and playing Core. As an alternative, I feel that it would be interesting to introduce a new category: Most Red Berries (MRB). Collect 170 berries and complete Summit as fast as possible. Thoughts?
That's literally ARB minus core and a small handful of hearts, which is just an incomplete run. Also, since there are 175 red berries, most red berries would be 88 (but that's not a good category for more obvious reasons)
:)
Core is required because it has berries, which is the point.
The issue with having portions of ARB is how it wouldn’t be like SM64 where you collect the fastest stars, or berries in this case, but you would collect most, if not all, berries up to the goal and then stop so you have to play less of the game. The levels are too linear to do something like this and excluding Core from the run just cuts 6-7 minutes off of what is now an incomplete run.
And MRB would focus on the singular goal of berry gathering, not allowing heart collection to interfere with it. ARB overachieves in this regard. I do see where you're coming from, though; MRB would be to ARB as Hearts is to Levels, A-Sides is to Any%, and 114% is to 100%. We would just have another weird category that would widely be seen as completely inferior to a main category. To that I ask why there should be weird inferior versions to all the mains except ARB? I don't know about you, but I feel like I would enjoy MRB more than I currently enjoy ARB.
Any% you beat the game asap All red berries you get 175 all red berries asap All Hearts you beat all 24 hearts asap All Chapters you beat every stage asap 100% you get all red berries and beat every stage All A/B/C-sides you play the side you want to play, asap 114% is a meme
All of those are categories that fall into something like Jumpyluff said, this is basically any% but you get some berries because you feel like it
How is playing the sides you want to play any different from getting the berries you want to get? And alternatively, I could just say any of the following: Hearts is just Chapters but you leave the A-Sides unfinished because you feel like it. Chapters is just Hearts but you ignore possible time save because you feel like it. ARB is just A-Sides but you get the berries because you feel like it. A-Sides is just ARB but you ignore the berries because you feel like it. A-Sides is just Any% but you unlock and beat Core because you feel like it. Any% is just A-Sides but you ignore Core because you feel like it. C-Sides is just Chapters but you skip the entire early and mid game because you feel like it. Chapters is just C-Sides but you leave tons of filler before the main course because you feel like it. 114% is just 100% but you play the entire game again deathless because you feel like it. 100% is just 114% but you pointedly ignore a part of the game you deem too challenging because you feel like it. If you want to be reductive, you can make any of the categories look arbitrary. There is no way you could conclusively and objectively show that MRB does not deserve to exist (because ARB) while A-Sides (despite Any%), Hearts (despite Chapters), and 114% (despite 100%) do. Now that I think of it, if Hearts and Chapters both deserve to exist, why not both Collectibles (get every heart and red berry) and 100% (complete every A-Side and get every heart and red berry)? Okay, at this point, I think I agree that MRB should not exist, but only in a universe where we actually care if our categories are cluttered or not and either move X-Sides, Hearts, and 114% to the category extensions page or just remove them. I see the merits in keeping and in getting rid of them, but in the former case, it makes just as much sense to start MRB and Collectibles. The only thing going against it is that no-one has run it yet, but that didn't stop Hearts and AP Any% from becoming main categories within days of conception.
Look, I can understand if this will never be a thing that people will play, that makes sense. Not every idea for a category is going to catch on, just look at New Game+ in our category extensions. Hell, our main categories have completely empty sections; only one AP run is currently on the leaderboard, and it's TGH's Any% from nearly a month ago. What I don't understand is how someone can believe that MRB is any less arbitrary than any of the other categories. Everything is arbitrary. Even the least arbitrary categories, doing the minimum possible (Any%) and the maximum possible (144%) feel contrived due to the first ignoring an entire A-Side and the latter not taking into account achievements. Yes, the game pointedly leaves you out of Core unless you get collectibles, and achievements are too closely tied to accounts to be a reasonable collectible in a speedrun, but that doesn't change the fact that the former disregards a canon event and the latter leaves things out of a "do everything" run. I don't particularly care whether or not MRB will actually be created, let alone catch on. I'm just throwing out an idea to see if others might like it. Much of my argument in the last comment was me playing devil's advocate to see where it would lead. That still doesn't warrant replying with the equivalent of a "no u". You may think MRB would be an incomplete ARB, but many think that Hearts is an incomplete Chapters. Rejecting the existence of it based on such an argument effectively tells all the Hearts runners that they aren't playing a category worth having here. I think it would be a fun side option the same way many believe Hearts and A-Sides are fun side options right now. It may never gain traction, but saying that it doesn't fit into a niche or create a complete and fulfilling category is just plain wrong. I'm sorry for offending you by extending the current logic of our categories to more possibilities.
Every category is arbitrary as it is always defined subjectively, but there is a difference in how arbitrary the objective of each category is. Comparing MRB to All Hearts is simply a false equivalency, a better comparison would be to a 23 Hearts run where you do everything All Hearts does, except you don't complete 8C. You are right saying that MRB is just as arbitrarily defined as any other category, and that we could have subjectively chosen any other definition or objective for those categories. However our current main categories intuitively represent a more cohesive and complete objective/run than MRB would.
Also just to clarify, removing the AP subcategories for every category but Any% is currently being talked about and considered, given the lack of interest in them. You concede yourself that MRB will probably suffer a similar fate ("I can understand if this will never be a thing that people will play"), so at this point it would be added to the leaderboards just for the sake of adding it.
I can see this become a thing on the Extension boards, so I encourage you to move the discussion there. As it is, I don't see MRB suited for the main boards, given the incomplete nature of the categories objective on top of the similarity to ARB that will probably lead to little to no activity in the category.
I still fail to see how leaving out five berries is more arbitrary than leaving every A-Side right after getting the major collectibles. Chapters serves as a berry-free 100% while ARB serves as a B/C-free 100%; making Hearts just because you can chop off parts of the A-Sides to save time is on the same level in my eyes as making MRB just because you can chop off the hearts and Core and still finish with every berry accessible in the original Any% route. Saying that the latter is more akin to doing 23 Hearts is the actual false equivalency, since getting the first 23 hearts necessarily unlocks Core C while getting the first 170 berries does not necessarily unlock Core. I concede the rest of the argument, though. I just feel that it's kind of unfair to be against a main category reduction of ARB while allowing a main category reduction of Chapters to stand. The only thing going for it at this point is that people run it at all.
I think 80 or 100 red berries would be a fun category extension, but it has no place on the main leaderboards.
The best possible outcome for ideas like this is the few numbers that trigger different pie endings, with 90 being the last significant one before 175. These may one day be added to the extensions board, but drawing comparisons to any of the main categories as they are now is a stretch, and are easy to separate out from most of this junk you're talking about.
Everest had one of the biggest updates so far with Everest Core becoming the "Stable" version. Here is what you need to know as a player and what rule changes are happening:
To put it in layman's terms, they're updating the game to use a newer framework. Which
