Forums  /  BattleBlock Theater  /  Polls on a few subjects
  Shady_Shady_

Hello,

So I never noticed the chat in the NLS Categories forum. I looked at it just now and liked the idea of putting it to a vote. The subjects I saw on the forum was adding a Insane difficulty, Where to start the timing and one subject brought up to me a lot was VSync and that it should be a rule for it to be on. So for theses issues, Crankeey suggested to put to a vote so I made a few strawpolls and would like for you to put your opinion in.

Should we add an Insane difficulty to the categories? If so, should they be added to misc categories?
http://strawpoll.me/5744306

Should it be a rule to start runs from a new file?
http://strawpoll.me/5744319

Should it be a rule to have VSync on?
http://strawpoll.me/5744323

I feel like there should be a deadline on when the votes go into effect but at the moment, I don't know when it'll be.

Thanks,
Shady

Edit: I will be closing the polls at the end of the month and will be adding the new rules into play.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

I don't know why we'd need a poll for vsync--the game runs 6.67% faster without it. A 1:30 run using v-sync would be equal to a 1:36 without v-sync. Also, the game defaults to it being on every time you start it.

 
  Shady_Shady_

That is true but I get a lot of people saying that it should be on and a bad run w/o vsync can be faster than a good run with vsync. The SDA forum for BBT even argued about it and came to conclusion of making it a rule to be on.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

It's highly likely that the newly submitted run by Raiin uses V-sync off. I mean... just compare the first 20 seconds to each other. Just using this as an example, this run, assuming a constant +4 fps advantage [there could be some loading advantages or disadvantages], his run would be ~1:32:19.2. I haven't watched it all the way through yet and yes it's better than the previous #1, but it's clear how 'problematic' that would be to the legitimacy of each run. If any mods are actually reading this topic, please tell me what you think of this.

Also, I can make a solid argument for why runs should not be started from a new file and why starting from one when you already have the weapons is simple illogical. I don't feel like typing it out at this moment. If anyone wants to hear it, feel free to ask.

 
  Shady_Shady_

I agree with what you're saying. I do think he is playing with V-sync off. For his Co-op any% run also, someone told me that they believed that he was playing with V-Sync off. I compared for when he gets to hatty with Horlamin's run and its easy to see that he's playing with V-sync off. But since V-sync being on is not a rule, i can not deny the run. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by how clear it would be problematic it would be to the legitimacy of each run. Do you mean it would be problematic to put V-sync on as rule and verify every run?

I do get why runs shouldn't be started from a new file but why is it illogical that starting from a file with the weapons? if you start from a completed file with no weapons (other than the default ones), you wouldn't get any gems because you've already completed the levels. Because you don't obtain gems, you can't get new items. If you were to get gems, it would be random which items you would get and that could kill your run.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

Firstly, the category that you're proposing where you start with no weapons, no gems, and nothing else would be considered an any% run. The category which had been run by many people in the past was called Any% NG+, which means that you don't start from a fresh file. However, the community here wants to start with a new file and say it would be considered any%. If you were to call it any%, you would have to trade off the gems and weapons to another steam account.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that starting from a new file and also having the weapons is like a mix of any% and any% NG+. It's a waste of run-time to include something that is for pure any% in an any% NG+ run.

Regarding the weapons and gem purchasing: yes, that is what you'd have to do in an any% run. It'd be highly RNG based and would kill a lot of runs and that is why nobody has done it.

Also, it'd be problematic to have it off because the time displayed won't accurately depict what the run was like in comparison to many of the other runs. In the SDA forum I think we all had it pretty much figured out. I don't recognize any of the names from there so I'm assuming this forum is an entirely different group who created their own rules.

P.S. V-Sync on should be a rule for most PC games [some games have irregularities]. I don't think the rules on this community were fully thought out and that they were likely a result of following the precedents from others.

P.S.S. Is it possible we could discuss this through some other medium? It's tedious to it here.

 
  Shady_Shady_

I probably should have said this earlier, but if you do delete your BBT save, it doesn't delete your heads, weapons or gems. So what I've kinda been thinking a new file as in just deleting the file and not taking away the weapons.

Yea, we can discuss this on Skype if you want. My name for Skype is the same for this.

 
  SeductiveSpatulaSeductiveSpatula

New file would look really good, especially for the level skip any% that nobody runs, but would make resets a hassle I will not deal with.

Shady already knows my views on this, but I'll put it here for anyone interested.

V-sync should be on, there's is no question about it. It shouldn't have a to be a rule, but apparently it does. Allowing v-sync to be off will make comparing PC and console even dumber and for PC runs hardware will easily outweigh execution, making the leaderboard a joke.

 
  Shady_Shady_

So, I'm going to add insane categories under misc categories and put V-Sync on as a rule. I would add new game as a rule but that would terminate almost all of the runs which wouldn't really be worth it and it would be annoying to set up a new file.

 
  HardrockerHardrocker

We could just add the time from the beginning to the opening of the first chapter to every non new file run.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

That wasn't really my point--I'm saying that for a run that's essentially NG+ there's no point in starting from a clear file rather than just from the room at the starting room.

 
  LordHorlaminLordHorlamin

Orange makes a valid point as to not starting from a new file considering it is a NG+ category anyways, I can concede that to him and if you aren't going to make it a rule, that's fine, I'll just start doing runs from there now.

Since you did add V-Sync being a requirement, as it very well should be, and it is noticeable that Raiin's run has V-Sync off, can it be thrown out? It isn't following the rules as they are set so why should it net him the number one spot on the leaderboard.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

According to Raiin, he didn't turn off V-Sync:

http://i.imgur.com/2tjQClA.png

I know it's obviously suspicious. I think it could also be that he didn't disable it himself and that his hardware did.

 
  LordHorlaminLordHorlamin

It's fine to leave it, I get it, it'd suck for him to have his run dq'd for something that he didn't change, I'll just beat it again anyways, it'll do me some good to have motivation to try harder.

 
  SeductiveSpatulaSeductiveSpatula

V-sync could be forced off in Nvidia control panel or whatever, I honestly don't care much.

I haven't had a look at the solo run, but I know for a fact that the coop run is considerably faster than it should be. The best time I've ever gotten for the first chapter together with Haos is an 8:45 and Raiin and Prime were in their run going like "is this sub 8" which is literally impossible. There is just absolutely no way, and compared to practically perfect segments they still save like 10-20 seconds.

Again I don't care why it's faster but it is. I'm not saying anyone's doing anything on purpose, but I'm not ok with it. It just really rubs me the wrong way to see a vastly inferior run put higher than the WR which is actually pretty solid. Sure it has mistakes, but it's a really good run. The thought of having someone wanting to learn the run watch a worse run and use that as a basis drives me insane.

FirePrismFirePrism and LordHorlaminLordHorlamin like this. 
  SeductiveSpatulaSeductiveSpatula

Ok, so I just thought of something. I don't know how the game and v-sync works with higher refresh rate monitors. I mean in theory v-sync will match the fps with the refresh rate of your monitor, so if Raiin has say a 120 or 144 Hz monitor, if v-sync works the way it should, he'll already be reaching more than twice the fps of people with the more common 60 Hz monitors even if v-sync is enabled.

Like I said I don't know how this stuff works yet, but I'm in the process of upgrading to 144 Hz monitors so I'll do testing when they get here. Basically if the v-sync option works properly for this game the rule needs to simply be "limit fps to 60" rather than "v-sync must be on".

I'll get back to you once I actually get some personal experience with the 144 Hzs. This was just something I wanted to mention as I never thought of it before today.

EDIT: Completely forgot about the fact that the game is innately locked at 64 fps so anything higher than that won't happen. Higher refresh rate might however still be the reason the game runs at 64 even with v-sync.

 
  OrangeCrixOrangeCrix

The frame-rate the game is running at doesn't always mean that the game is running at a different speed. For example, if he had a 120 hz monitor it still doesn't mean that it's running at twice the speed, it's limited by the seconds variable so there are just more instances visible per second. For the case with v-sync in this game, though, it seems that the highest it goes is 64 with v-sync off.
I don't understand fully why it happens in this game, as some games run 2000+ fps without v-sync making it look smoother, but the time actual speed of the game-play doesn't change.

 
  SeductiveSpatulaSeductiveSpatula

Oh I am well aware that higher framerate doesn't mean a game is running faster, but for this game we know this is the case, and like I said I totally forgot about the 64 fps lock in BattleBlock. My only point was simply that as v-sync will attempt to match the framerate of the game to the refresh rate of your monitor, using a monitor with a refresh rate higher than 64 might be the reason the game is running at 64 with v-sync activated. I was just trying to help figure out why Raiin's game is running at 64 with v-sync on.

I got my new monitors today and can confirm that this is in fact the case. With a refresh rate >60Hz you'll be running at 64 fps regardless of v-sync being enabled or disabled. http://puu.sh/lEhVF/4bf1914a41.jpg

I've seen plenty of cases where in-game timers (Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light), physics (L.A. Noire) and gamespeed (LCGoL, Need For Speed: Rivals) are related to the framerate of the game. It's a shame and I wish it didn't happen, but I guess let's just do the usual thing and blame consoles.

Just change the rules to include a 60 fps limit (which is easy to do with free software or simply by changing the refresh rate of your monitor and using v-sync as usual), fix the leaderboards and we can all move on with our lives never running into this problem again. 😃

HaosEdgeHaosEdge likes this. 
  Shady_Shady_

Ok, what software should be used to limit the frames? I would like to put it in the resources page for the BBT.

 
  SeductiveSpatulaSeductiveSpatula

The one that immediately comes to mind is Dxtory (http://exkode.com/dxtory-downloads-en.html), even the trial version will allow you to limit fps and it doesn't require much effort. There are probably tons of other programs, but I'm not very familiar with anything other than Fraps and Dxtory.

If someone for whatever reason don't want to use software they would have to set their refresh rate to 60 Hz and use v-sync as usual. I assume anyone with a high refresh rate monitor knows how to do this as they usually default to 60 Hz, but just in case:

Control Panel > Appearance and Personalization > Display (or just right click your desktop) > Screen Resolution : Advanced settings and you'll find a drop-down menu with refresh rates under the Monitor tab