Forums  /  The Site  /  Reject: This doesn't appear notable
  MaiguelsMaiguels

Hi, I've requested yesterday an Atari 2600 that was released in a PS2 compilation.

Today I've found that the request was rejected with the reason I wrote as a post title (and you can see in the attached image).

I don't understand the reason, can you please explain me why?

Thanks.

http://i.prntscr.com/DXkDhrmERRmFoEnOIzFp7A.png

 
  DangerlessDangerless

Because 99% of Atari 2600 games are purely score based (which at this time we don't accept), nearly none of them you can complete. I can't speak for every Atari game on the site.

I figured it would be pretty obvious why it would be rejected and if you'd like to look at Boxing out of the Atari games....well...it really doesn't appear notable. It is about as generic as it gets when you compare it to the many other boxing games on the site already.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

This one can be completed once you reach 100 points, which means a K.O. (and it's shown on the screen), so technically has a goal.

I've realized that is a generic game, and I respect your decision about rejecting the game, but with a quick searching you can found games as simple as this one with their own leaderboard.

 
  LivLiv

Will just say as the submission standards get more strict, we're not retroactively trying to uphold those rules for submissions instated long ago, or years ago.

Possibly in the future some pruning may happen for dead boards with 0 runs, as there are 100s of boards on the site with 0 runs / have had 0 runs since they were added.There are plenty of games / boards on the site that probably shouldn't have a board either, but an attempt at more harsher, higher quality standards shouldn't be met with "but a while ago they were lower, and here are some examples of when the standards were far lower", If that makes sense.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

Thanks for your response Liv (and thank you too, Dangerless, I didn't say anything before).

I understand your point of view about that leaderboard without any game must be removed, but I think some people thought, as you ask for a run link in the Request game form, that they put automatically in the leaderboard (which make no sense as you must create and define a category first).

I don't know if you thought about that problem, but maybe there's a solution for those empty leaderboards, like notice the mod about that issue, or remove/hide the leaderboard after a certain number of days witout any run.

What I disagree with you is with this part:

"There are plenty of games / boards on the site that probably shouldn't have a board either, but an attempt at more harsher, higher quality standards shouldn't be met"

There's a lot of games that maybe seem generic, not interesting, or boring to watch (which in part is a personal opinion, maybe some person like to watch, for example, FPS games and don't like RPG, and viceversa). What I mean is that where is the boundary to define which game is better or not, and which criteria you follow to determine which game deserve a leaderboard.

Also, about "higher standars quality", as you said, every game in the beginning aren't optimized, people discover new routes and glitches after playing, trying and talking with other runners, and that doesn't mean that before that discovering the game was less interesting or has a lesser quality.

I mean, if you deny the chance to have a leaderboard for a game, maybe that will cause that potential runners of that game won't run it, have a common place to communicate between runners, and hence, prevent that the game won't "evolve" as a good speedgame.

And yes, I've realized that I said all that because I've requested a leadeboard of a 2 minutes game and probably everything what I said wouldn't apply for that specific game, but I want to request more games and know beforehand which is the criteria and depending of that, avoid wasting your time and mine if a submit a game that not meet the standars.

Thanks.

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  NihilistComedyHourNihilistComedyHour

If the game was released as part of a PS2 Compilation, it would make far more sense to request the actual compilation itself as the game (Atari Anthology (PS2)). It would be insane to add the run as if it had been played on the Atari game called "Boxing" assuming they ran they same.

That being said, always disappointing to see an officially licensed game Atari, C64, MS-DOS, or GBA game get rejected.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

Or just made a common leaderboard and create a category for each platform if there is a huge time difference between them.

 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets

@Maiguels "I think some people thought, as you ask for a run link in the Request game form, that they put automatically in the leaderboard"

I don't buy this. Even if they did think this initially (which there's absolutely nothing that would indicate that this is the case), it would be pretty obvious as soon as the person actually looks at the leaderboard. If the moderator can't even be bothered to look at the leaderboard they moderate long enough to realize that there are no runs on it, then maybe they shouldn't be a moderator in the first place?

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

You're right, and for that reason I propose to delete the leaderboard after X days without any run uploaded.

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  NihilistComedyHourNihilistComedyHour

Right, but there is like 80 games in that anthology. Just because your board would cover both versions doesn't mean every Atari game board is also going to accept both versions. Likely end up with a situation where some Atari games could be played on this specific PS2 anthology, while others wouldn't be accepted. There's also more than one Atari compilation.

That being said I looked up Centipede as an example, because it's on both the Atari Collection 1 and the Atari Collection 2 for PS. They put all consoles of the game on one board. They going to make a "PS - Atari Collection 1" and "PS - Atari Collection 2"? I guess so. At least it's actually subcatted out.

So either way, the issue of Atari ports inside compilations I'm sure will remain incredibly unorganized indefinitely since that type of organization is larger than a single game and doesn't quite fall into a "series."

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

And it won't be more confusing if for the same game there are two different leaderboards? And one of them with another completely different name.

The anthology where is located that game is called Activision Anthology, one of the games included is Dragster, and following the criteria as you proposed, there would be two leaderboards:

-The first one called Dragster.
-The second one called Activision Anthology, and inside their leaderboard, one of its categories will be called Dragster.

It looks confusing and completely illogical imo, because nobody will look (or would be less common) for Dragster inside the Anthology.

It's like if in a emulator you can make a certain glitch that is imposible to make in console, that means two different leaderboard or create a different category?

There are already multiplatforming games that are in the same leaderboard but in different categorys. The same game with different strats and different loading times. Why do you want to make an exception with this kind of games?

Only because it's inside a Anthology?

Also, in the case of Activision Anthology there are more than 50 games, would you like to see 50 categories? That would be a complete mess.

607607 likes this. 
  TheGreatToddmanTheGreatToddman

Easy fix, play real games. No need to thank me, pay it forward!

 
  NihilistComedyHourNihilistComedyHour

"And it won't be more confusing if for the same game there are two different leaderboards? And one of them with another completely different name.

The anthology where is located that game is called Activision Anthology, one of the games included is Dragster, and following the criteria as you proposed, there would be two leaderboards:

-The first one called Dragster.
-The second one called Activision Anthology, and inside their leaderboard, one of its categories will be called Dragster.

It looks confusing and completely illogical imo, because nobody will look (or would be less common) for Dragster inside the Anthology."

I mean, conversation is sort of moot given that the game wasn't accepted. But, for the sake of conversation, I'm pretty sure if you tried to submit a Dragster run using the Activision Anthology for PS2, it would be rejected. So, for people trying to Dragster runs in the Anthology would have no where to submit times.

Personally, if I'm playing some other compilation game, the first thing I would do is look for the name of the compilation. The most important title is the one on the package of the game you are putting into a system and playing it. At least, IMO.

Example: https://www.speedrun.com/the_best_of_entertainment_pack
https://www.speedrun.com/action_52

"There are already multiplatforming games that are in the same leaderboard but in different categorys. The same game with different strats and different loading times. Why do you want to make an exception with this kind of games?"

There are also multiplatforming games that have their own page very every specific release of the game (See: Tetris) Those sorts of things come down to the game and community, because sometimes games be incredibly consistent among platforms, and other times same titles can be very different. There is no right/wrong way to do it; but it's not really an "exception" considering many titles are listed in both ways.

"Also, in the case of Activision Anthology there are more than 50 games, would you like to see 50 categories? That would be a complete mess."

Could easily be addressed by making individual games on the level board, which allows per level subcats to be made. "Action 52" would look better, IMO, if it was like that, but it's not really a necessity by any means, and I rank aesthetics second to accuracy myself.

But moot point, at least for now. "Anthology" games are a specific issue that is a bit different than just a "multiplatformer." I think it works either way, but without any sort of site-wide consistency on the matter, I'd expect a clusterfuck to occur either direction. The site is excellent for individuals to set up individual boards and set them up how they deem reasonable. It's not always so great on addressing an issue that would involve multiple boards and mods.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

The conversation went so off-topic from the original question I had, so if I need to stop and open another thread to talk about this, please tell me.

"I mean, conversation is sort of moot given that the game wasn't accepted."

I'm not trying to convince the mods to change their mind and accept the game requested.

I wanted to know, from the reason of the rejection, and from Liv's reply, which is the criteria they follow to know if the game can be acceptable to request a leaderboard or not.

If, after that, the conversation has led to where it belongs a game who is inside a compilation, is not because I had a temper tantrum or something like that. I'm not angry about the rejection, as I said before, I respect the mod's decision.

I just wanted to know the reason and clarify which games I can submit and which not, and how (inside the entire compilation, as a separate game, or inside the "original" game leaderboard), son in a future, in case I need (or someone else) to request this kind of games, there will be clear rules about how can be submitted.

"But, for the sake of conversation, I'm pretty sure if you tried to submit a Dragster run using the Activision Anthology for PS2, it would be rejected. So, for people trying to Dragster runs in the Anthology would have no where to submit times."

I agree with you.

" https://www.speedrun.com/the_best_of_entertainment_pack
https://www.speedrun.com/action_52 "

IMO, both games are not the best examples in sort way.

I mean:

-The Best Of Entertainment Pack: All the games included inside this compilation were released before. I've never played one of those games inside the compilation, so I have no idea if there is a difference between that game and the "original" previously released.

But, in the case that someone wants to request a leaderboard only for TicTacTics, would be accepted? Separately or together with the times of the compilation game?

-Action 52: Aside from, IMO, horrible presentation (with a lot of categories instead of separate them as Individual Levels, like happens on The Best Of Entertainment), the games inside were "original" and never released before, so I have no complains about include all games into in a leaderboard with the compilation's name.

Each compilation will be unique in some way, but as Liv said, if they getting more strict about the requested games and want to have higher standars, these kind of game compilation must have an standard in terms of how to submit.

I mean, have a short explanation at Game Request rules: https://www.speedrun.com/requestgame

And also maybe (I don't know how difficult can it be) create a request type so you can organise better the games inside that compilation and more standardized : http://prntscr.com/kd4lld

"There are also multiplatforming games that have their own page very every specific release of the game (See: Tetris) Those sorts of things come down to the game and community, because sometimes games be incredibly consistent among platforms, and other times same titles can be very different. There is no right/wrong way to do it; but it's not really an "exception" considering many titles are listed in both ways."

I totally agree with you, each game it will be a decision take by their community, and as in Tetris each release has their own leaderboard, there are other where are platform are included inside the same page: https://www.speedrun.com/mk3

When I mentioned the "exception" I was talking of compilations, but yes, maybe I rushed a little bit saying that.

"It's not always so great on addressing an issue that would involve multiple boards and mods."

That's the biggest problem, but that is what I'm trying to ask and talk with all of you, to see how to deal with the compilations.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

So, what should I do? Should I request an Activision Anthology leaderboard?

@Liv I haven't received any response about which is the criteria you follow to define which game deserves a leaderboard, and I think we must know it in order to avoid both the runners and the moderators to waste their time writing/reading a game request form, and there is no information related to that at the game request rules.

 
  NihilistComedyHourNihilistComedyHour

Sorry, got a little too drunk last night to reply.

"I wanted to know, from the reason of the rejection, and from Liv's reply, which is the criteria they follow to know if the game can be acceptable to request a leaderboard or not.

If, after that, the conversation has led to where it belongs a game who is inside a compilation, is not because I had a temper tantrum or something like that. I'm not angry about the rejection, as I said before, I respect the mod's decision."

Aw, you're good. I'm just, cautious about phrasing because sometimes people act, strangely. Also, I'm pretty sure I come off as a douche 90% of the time.

"And also maybe (I don't know how difficult can it be) create a request type so you can organise better the games inside that compilation and more standardized : http://prntscr.com/kd4lld"

That would be neat, but I would imagine would be incredibly difficult to implement.

"-The Best Of Entertainment Pack: All the games included inside this compilation were released before. I've never played one of those games inside the compilation, so I have no idea if there is a difference between that game and the "original" previously released.

But, in the case that someone wants to request a leaderboard only for TicTacTics, would be accepted? Separately or together with the times of the compilation game?"

I agree it's not the greatest example. There is only one true compilation of basically emulated games on the site, so it's not really an issue that's routinely come up or something.

Very specific and super complicated, since TicTacTics was originally part of Microsoft Entertainment Pack 1 (which, for most people, came native with Win3.1) The thing is though, some of these games have indeed continued on. SkiFree's designer has it working for modern computers in the form of 4.2. TicTacTics also exists as a mobile game now. JezzBall was updated and released as JezzBall Galaxy for Windows 8. I think if you were playing the versions 1.0 of the game, which would likely be done through an emulator (Win3.1 can be emulated through DosBox), that the compilation might be more appropriate, whereas the games that have been altered, updated and independently sort of released at a later time might be better as page.

The GBC "Best of Microsoft Entertainment" Pack is a mix of games from different packs and ported. And naturally a Game Boy port of individual games recombined as such, plays differently, and makes since as a separate pack.

Granted though, really early computer games can get complicated in this regard because their lives are not necessarily in the traditional way games are generally released. If it was up to me, I'd have Microsoft Entertain Pack 1, 2, etc. as a thing for anyone running the original software, and then individual pages in instances where some of those games were revamped or re-released, etc.

"-Action 52: Aside from, IMO, horrible presentation (with a lot of categories instead of separate them as Individual Levels, like happens on The Best Of Entertainment), the games inside were "original" and never released before, so I have no complains about include all games into in a leaderboard with the compilation's name."

Fair point.

"That's the biggest problem, but that is what I'm trying to ask and talk with all of you, to see how to deal with the compilations."

Tbh, the way different content moderators judge whether a game will be accepted is entirely subjective, as far as determining whether is something notable. I would imagine since Boxing was rejected (which is a shame), that Activision Anthology also likely would (though, only one way to really that one out). In my mind, both would be good to go, but, alas, I am but a lowly runner of games, offering only my thoughts on the matter.

Best way, I might imagine, getting advice from a mod about, whether you should submit a compilation or as separate pages, would be asking a mod in the discord for advice. Just because they all slightly differ in how they work and were made, would probably be hard to lay down a consistent ruling for it, that and because it's such a rare issue as far as game submissions go, it's probably not high priority.

As far as getting the information on the game request page updated to more accurately reflect what it is specifically they do or do not accept (with some sort of disclaimer that games may be rejected for more or less any reason a mod might come up with), I'd love to see, but that's a topic that... comes up routinely.

But yea, I tend to overthink the data because I'm constantly with databases at work, and just tend to see possible issues arising on the long term. And yea, I appreciate the chat by the way; the topic of game data and so fourth is interesting to me. I think it terms of possibly requesting something like, just go with what you think might be best. It's not like there's a permanency to things that can't be later fixed or addressed should issues arise.

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  LivLiv

Problem with defining a criteria is then we're saying you must be X length, or have a defined start-end point, must not be X type of game. Defined criteria like that just wouldn't work, which is why it's partially a subjective system.

As for the compilation games, not sure how I feel about them. My main issue with the a setup similar to Action 52 is that they are just multiple games, so submitting a compilation of many games with only a single game submission would just feel kind of Iffy, if anything. I mean, it is technically like handling/submitting multiple games and not all of those games held within might really be material we would accept.

For example, in that Action 52 game:

https://www.speedrun.com/action_52/run/zpq879ry

"Firebreathers" - appears to be a strictly 2-player game where player 1 just kills the idle player 2 over and over, and that is a "run". Personally, seems like a silly category, and if this was submitted as an individual run for an individual game (or even as an example run of Action 52) I would reject it myself, but because it's held within a 'compilation' it got added as a category to be ran.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

Thanks for your response.

@NihilistComedyHour

"Tbh, the way different content moderators judge whether a game will be accepted is entirely subjective, as far as determining whether is something notable. I would imagine since Boxing was rejected (which is a shame), that Activision Anthology also likely would (though, only one way to really that one out). In my mind, both would be good to go, but, alas, I am but a lowly runner of games, offering only my thoughts on the matter.

Best way, I might imagine, getting advice from a mod about, whether you should submit a compilation or as separate pages, would be asking a mod in the discord for advice. Just because they all slightly differ in how they work and were made, would probably be hard to lay down a consistent ruling for it, that and because it's such a rare issue as far as game submissions go, it's probably not high priority."

And for that reason I've talked about a third request type, called Compilations, as the games included in that collections can be different respect the original one, and in order to have a standard way to define compilation leaderboards.

It can be difficult to implement (I have no idea) but it's something that could help to solve this "problem" we're talking about (as how are they shown, as different categories or as a Individual Levels) and also to fix the already existent compilation leaderboards, like this one: https://www.speedrun.com/Midway_Arcade_Treasures

@Liv

I'm not saying that, such a specific criteria with mandatory requirementes, but a guideline or a reference could help to have an idea about what can be accepted or not.

And I have a question regarding compilations and its request for a leaderboard:

-How can I submit it right now?

Submit a video link of one of those games, then explain (in Additional notes) in the requesting form that it belongs to a game compilation?

And as a game name, write the compilation instead of the game's name of the video I've submitted?

 
  NihilistComedyHourNihilistComedyHour

"And for that reason I've talked about a third request type, called Compilations, as the games included in that collections can be different respect the original one, and in order to have a standard way to define compilation leaderboards.

It can be difficult to implement (I have no idea) but it's something that could help to solve this "problem" we're talking about (as how are they shown, as different categories or as a Individual Levels) and also to fix the already existent compilation leaderboards, like this one: https://www.speedrun.com/Midway_Arcade_Treasures"

Yeah, I think that method would be exceedingly difficult, but what I could imagine would work is having a Compilation option in the same field as "ROM Hack"/"Fangame" etc. That would allow a game page for compilation to have some sort of reference to the games in contains (Assuming those games have been added somewhere on the board).

So on a "Activison Anthology" it would have "Compilation" and then possibly a list of those individual game pages that exist on the compilation, given that those pages exist. However, if you were on the Dragster page, it wouldn't necessarily show you that Dragster was part of the Activision Anthology. Not particularly perfect, but I imagine much easier to add to database.

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  MaiguelsMaiguels

@NihilistComedyHour That's a good alternative to request and create compilation leaderboards.