Forum posts

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

I'm going to do my own thing for now.
I like the idea of a poll, and I think it's great for getting the community involved in something so important.

My problem is, there's no way to create an official category on the leaderboard where everyone is happy.
This vote will make the majority happy, and the minority unhappy. I don't want to take part in that.
I'm a firm believer that everyone should be allowed to run what they want.

I'm not going to deal with this. I'd rather come back when the dust settles and see what the new rules / categories are. From there, I'll decide if I want to compete in anything.

Until then, I'll compete against myself, or anyone else that wants to try it.
I'll be running dynamic maps, RTA (no loading), ladder runewords enabled.

I'll tell you why:

- RTA (no loading) or IGT as we've been calling it
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- Fixes the -ns vs sound dilemma
- With loading times removed from the timer, everyone gets to play with sound or without sound without gaining or losing a competitive advantage.
- Meaning, sound is now just a cosmetic preference (AS IT SHOULD BE)

Dynamic Maps (auto map regen -- maps re-roll when you click Save & Exit)
---------------------------------
- This will negate any advantage from being allowed to use TCP/IP with the new timer
- In fact, it will make TCP/IP useless AND it's better than simply banning TCP/IP
- It completely removes any chance for permanent WP farming via lucky maps
- Meaning, things like jail or BB farming is no longer the meta
- Meaning, you're now playing through the game instead of fixating on forcing improbable RNG

Ladder Runewords
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- RTA (no loading) and dynamic maps are already making a huge leap towards how battle.net / multiplayer playstyle is/was
- Might as well just go all the way

Comments
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- Anyone that's played Diablo II on battle.net is going to appreciate this category
- Newcomers are going to be familiar with something they already know
- Working category title: any% BNS (any% Battle.Net Style)
- Can add or remove current tags as you like:
- e.g. any% Hell HC p1 BNS Sorc
- I'll be running players X to start

Here's where you can get it:
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/533428492981764097/712762839378559027/Basemod.zip
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Or, download the full version and configure it yourself: https://www.moddb.com/mods/basemod/downloads/basemod1133
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Good luck with the upcoming Discord debate. I hope everyone finds something that makes them happy. I'm excited to see what happens.

darxidedarxide and WraithulekWraithulek like this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

@stasyszystasyszy Unfortunately, this isnt JUST about creating more categories. It's about addressing the unfair advantage for someone choosing to play without sound vs someone choosing to play with sound. Imagine if someone came around and ran p8 HC and crushed your times, simply because they used -ns. Imagine if the only way you could compete with your favorite categories is to disable sound? What would you do then?

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

@MekalbMekalb
it takes less than 30 seconds to set up and test, you can do it right now just by running livesplit and activating the timer control

edit splits ---> select diablo II lord of destruction ---> activate
timer ---> game time
start your run, experiment

MekalbMekalb likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

I have no quarrel with not pausing for breaks. I'll pee with the timer running, or without it running. Regardless, the grace time is something that needs to be discussed. For example, what if a crash takes an hour to fix? What if someone does indeed lock their PC up during "save and exit" or during the loading bar? How is this regulated?

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

@LaVLaV

I'm fine with the timer going during the menu.
I'm also fine with the timer going during my pee breaks.

Your strategy discussion and all that jazz will happen regardless of whether the timer stops during the main menu or not. Someone can just develop a tool to lock up their PC during save & exit, or during TCP/IP. As a result, people should be allowed to pause their timer simply by closing their game down completely. Or, by pressing escape in-game.

Other speedrun leaderboards have rules in place for your specific reason. There is usually a "grace time" that you are allowed to have the timer paused for.

https://www.speedrun.com/re2remake for example:
Submissions must contain all footage for the runs provided. Any missing footage (not counting cutscenes) could result in the run being rejected. Extended periods of time spent in the pause screen will also invalidate a run. (Limit 2 minutes per pause)

No matter what, this new timing method MUST have a rule discussing how long we can pause for. As a result, it just makes the most sense to allow someone to pause the time whenever they like (by either pressing ESC, or by closing their d2 completely); because ultimately, they WILL pause the timer whenever they like using any loophole they can.

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

I just tested the livesplit script for IGT. It's perfect.
The timer also pauses if you close D2 completely, so this is perfect for needing to pee.

I'm 100% on the IGT train. This will make speedrunning way more enjoyable for me.

In order to honor the people who have put in hard work with RTA, and to honor those who have come and gone in the past, I think it's important that the current RTA times are posted on the leaderboards permanently. Treat it like museum. Anyone that still runs RTA can still run RTA, and they can still submit.

That being said, I think we should have a brand new IGT leaderboard.
I'm gonna get the ball rolling.
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I will no longer run RTA except for racing.
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And that means I will always be 0/7 for RTA. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
IGT all the way. Let's go!

WraithulekWraithulek and Daz86Daz86 like this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: We need to address -ns

Started by: IndrekIndrek

---------------------------------
IGT vs RTA
---------------------------------
Llama brings up a good point with livesplit crashing -- re-timing can certainly be a hassle.
If my splits crashed during a run and I was forced to re-time my run, I'd be devastated.
I think it's worth the risk though.

If there is a livesplit script that can pause the timer specifically for the hang-time when you click "Save & Exit" I'm all for it. It would completely solve the sound vs -ns dilemma.

Personally, I think if we use IGT, the timer should be paused for two things:
1) "Save & Exit" hang time
2) TCP/IP loading bar
I'd be fine if it paused in the main menu as well (cause then I can pee).
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-ns with RTA
---------------------------------
I'm not going to use -ns even if it is faster. I won't enjoy playing the game.
For that reason, I probably won't compete in RTA categories that allow -ns.

KanoKano likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Seeded Category - Rule / General Discussion

Started by: Teo-Teo-

(edited: )

I prefer active, but I'm happy with either one.

Edit: It works cleaner with autosplitter too

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps

Started by: RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

He uploaded it to me on Discord manually. Not sure where he got it. I can send it to you on Discord. But I just wanted to make a point that we don't have to use plugy, and we can do this in 1.14d without a bunch of overhead.

KinkaraKinkara likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps

Started by: RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

Regarding battle.net / PlugY

Indrek found a mod that re-rolls maps when you S&Q in 1.14d. So, we can avoid PlugY all together.

Daz86Daz86 likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps

Started by: RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@LaVLaV

2) It's not the same as regular randomized maps. SP currently PRESERVES the seed upon Save & Exit. This means if you find the Jail WP setup, you can farm it. With the battle.net style, it gets erased upon Save & Exit, meaning you CANNOT farm it. It makes it a completely different route.

As for PlugY vs using a mod with single feature:
If you know of a mod that does that, let's use it. I was just suggesting the idea of having an auto-reset feature upon Save & Exit.

3) Why are donations and prize pools getting involved here? Who said this is a once a month thing? If there is a "Kicksin" challenge category, anyone could grind a "Kicksin" speedrun whenever they want by themselves and they can submit their run to the leaderboards at any time. It would be the equivalent of how the any% normal category exists on the leaderboard , except there are different rules for kicksin%

It is not "infinite" new categories to speedrun.com. It is adding only the amount of categories that become ACTIVELY competitive. And we can use a screening process to verify that it has become competitive. For example, 3 or more runners start doing it, and are updating their times on Discord for example. If its something they're grinding for months and months, it should be something that gets more exposure on a public leaderboard, IMO.

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Seeded Category - Rule / General Discussion

Started by: Teo-Teo-

For rule #3, honestly I'm happy either way -- Active or inactive seed parameter after character creation.

I vote for active just because it makes it cleaner to reset. I also think it's cool if people can search for maps that have idea shrine setups (e.g EXP shrine by WP). If the seed is inactive, it won't be an EXP shrine every time, and the power of using a seeded map gets limited.

I am also uncertain if monster groups become randomized if the seed becomes inactive.

For me, it just makes sense to keep the seed active for the whole run. Full embrace of the seeded feature.

As for hell runs, I'm a bit torn here. It doesn't make much sense to keep the seed active between difficulties because it screws the minimap up significantly in certain areas. I think for hell runs there could be a couple solutions, but I don't know what is best. I think maybe the easiest thing would be if players were allowed to keep their seed active and they could delete their char.map file from their save folder. This removes all the cached map data, so basically your minimap becomes blank again and you have to walk to uncover it again.

 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps

Started by: RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

@LaVLaV

1) I would suggest that the seed is active. Shrines stay the same. Monster groups stay the same. People share their seeds when they submit their run, and the seed value is made public. Everyone else gets the opportunity to explore the WR seed and try to do better.

2) Battle.net style with Plugy
PlugY has a feature in the settings file that allows you to automatically reset the seed upon "Save & Quit"
This auto-reset feature mimics the battle.net lifestyle where you get a brand new seed every time you create a new game. PlugY simply allows us to do it in SP without needing to manually do TCP/IP after every "Save & Quit".

3) I agree that this can easily get flooded. I think it's important that, as a community, if we agree that it's time to embrace new categories, that we decide on an few initial challenge runs. Any additional categories should have to go through a requirement process (such as, three or more people need to DM the mods with a completed challenge run, and are now requesting a place to post their times so they can track the competition that has started).

I think there is room for challenge runs on a leaderboard. As long as people are running it and it's actively competitive between a few people, I think it's important that they have a spot to post their times.

@hellojoehellojoe
Yes that is exactly what it means. A seeded map means the monster spawns, shrines, and map layout are all predetermined. One exception is that some times monster spawns vary between classes. Another exception is that some of the mobs change slightly between difficulty swapping (e.g. Normal --> NM ---> Normal). To my knowledge, this second exception is very rare.

I personally would prefer the seed to persist for the entire run. I don't want to close my client mid run, remove the seed, and then continue the run. I'd rather be 100% on board with fixed maps, shrines, and monster spawns. It's cleaner. One active seed for the entire run, start to end.

HotJacobHotJacob likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Jail Strats / Seeded Maps / Battle.net Maps

Started by: RyuQuezacotlRyuQuezacotl

I think the Jail strats are really cool, and it is something I want to incorporate into my sorceress runs. I think it is and will be the WR strategy for a long time.

I'm not very excited about resetting my runs all day for 8 hours just to get the optimal jail layout before being able to actually start my run.

I propose that we, as a speedrunning community, consider trying out new categories.

1) Seeded runs - This one fully embraces the Jail WP strat
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We can all start running maps where we're guaranteed the jail setup. We don't have to reset for 8 hours just to get the right map. We can use the jail strat, and we can choose to reset because of bad item drops, or poor execution, or other RNG or decision making factors that do not involve wasting a full day on re-rolling for a specific Jail WP. Using a seeded map, we can simply start with the Jail WP if we want, and we can focus on all the execution that follows. Everyone picks a seed they like, and when you submit a run, you submit the seed you used as well.

2) Battle.net style runs with PlugY - This one embraces true randomness
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With a battle.net style category, we can bring this game back to on-the-fly decisions -- adapting to RNG over the course of a full run. It's no longer about re-rolling maps for a lucky WP + boss group and then finishing a run. It's about factoring in all elements of surprise and then adapting to your given situation. It's about making quick decisions, and dealing with what is thrown at you.

3) Challenge runs - something completely fresh.
Examples:
- "Kicksin"
- "Bowazon"
- "Zealer"
- "Fire sorc"
- "Poison necro"
- "Stealthless"
- "No mercenary"
- "No teleport"
- "No vendors"
- "Frenzy barb"
- "No save and exit"
- "No going back to town"
- "Rush to character level X on class Y"
- "Rush to maximum resistances on Hell"
The possibilities are endless! I am so excited at the thought of how fast everyone could be. The thought that we can have completely different ideas, and both go really fast. That's cool!

There is one reason why Diablo II speedrunning is so special to me. It showcases your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it somehow in a meaningful way that demonstrates some level of skill.

1) Seeded maps are interesting because it focuses on your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it to what is ALREADY KNOWN.

2) Battle.net maps are interesting because it focuses on your ability to take everything you know about the game and apply it to what is UNKNOWN.

3) Challenge runs are interesting because it forces us to think in ways we've never possibly imagined. We're all going to bring something unique to the table, and we're all going to measure up and be like "hey that's really cool! I'm going to try that right now!"

With the current sorceress category we're running now, we're about to take something that is already extremely grindy and reset intensive,
- (Tal + Eth, exp shrines, good item drops, monster spawns, gold)
...and we're going to start re-rolling Jail WPs on top of that.

I watched Teo try it, I watched Indrek try it. I tried it. The magic ratio seems to be close to 1 successful attempt for every 8 hours.

We, as a speedrunning community, are about to move very far away from what I think a lot of us hold dear to Diablo II: tapping in to your knowledge base for everything you know about Diablo II, and giving it your best to be the greatest/fastest you can be at accomplishing "something". We're gonna lose this essence real soon.

Right now, that "something" we're clinging on to is killing Baal on a brand new character in an unseeded map. We tap into our skill-sets, and we get the job done.

But where do we draw the line? When do we say:
"Hey, this isn't about tapping into our skill-sets anymore."

When do we recognize that we're merely resetting over and over just to make a point that we can be one second faster? Where's the skill-set in resetting for 8 hours a day only to see that you've accomplished nothing? Where's the fun in it? When do we accept that it is no longer about giving it your best, and it's only about getting the chance for a "perfect run"?

My opinion, with the sorceress, it's about to be real soon. We're all going to be pushing for Jail WP + champions, and we're all gonna burn ourselves out doing it. For what? An arbitrary sense of glory?

Diablo II is a massive game, that requires a variety of different skills. Can we not all just all agree that it would be more fun to tap into our skill-sets in order to accomplish "something ELSE"?

Take a look at the points race that Indrek created on his website. Look at all the people that are participating. You're given arbitrary goals, and a set of rules, and you try your best to come out on top. Take a look at the Slash n Stash race we had. Look how many people showed up for that. A massive display of all the skills we have, and truly showing how good we are at the game by taking an arbitrary task, and saying 3..2..1..go! Take a look at the random commission runs I've been doing. Bender and I were just saying the other day how it would be really fun to go head to head in a Kicksin race. How many of you here also find these things exciting? It's like we're all little kids again and we get to take everything we know, plan, theory craft, and try to be the best we can be and enjoy a little friendly competition in the process. That is what speedrunning Diablo II is all about. At least for me it is. The push to optimize something that isn't clearly optimized. The drive to defeat the unknown. The ability to show off how good you really are at the game you love.

We're about to see the exact opposite with the sorceress. We're all going to take something we love, and burn ourselves out doing something that really doesn't mean much at all anymore.

"I'm really good at Diablo II, and I can prove it because I spent 8 hours every day for the last month trying to beat the game in 55 minutes."

You know what I say to that? "Yes, you are very good. Congratulations world record holder. I hope you had fun."

We can prove our skill in other ways that don't involve masochism. In ways where we all might enjoy accomplishing "something" a little more meaningful.

Old categories aren't going anywhere, you can keep grinding that sorceress until you're happy. But what about the rest of us who already had our fill? What are we supposed to do? Can we not try something new? Can we not compete in something that is fresh and unknown. Hell yes we can. We just have to embrace change. New listings on the leaderboard. That's all it takes.

I'd like to move towards discussing these categories. As a speedrunner, what excites you? What do you think would be fun? I've already said mine, let's hear yours.

WraithulekWraithulek, Daz86Daz86 and BurtReynoldzBurtReynoldz like this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Classic -> Expansion conversion discussion

Started by: DonForgoDonForgo

I have no problem with the current category allowing classic characters to convert to expansion.

I would like to see an official ruleset on the d2lod page though.

Daz86Daz86 likes this. 

Forum: Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Thread: Is patching the game during run allowed? (rules question)

Started by: ZutatensuppeZutatensuppe

Each version should be it's own category in my opinion. If modifying game files outside the game itself is allowed, I'd argue that back-rolling quest rewards (imbue/ring/anya) is also allowed.

Daz86Daz86 likes this.