The difference would be dependent on settings and which emulator you choose. In addition, giving a differential is contextual depending on the run. For example, sometimes people go to the exterior or interior of the Warehouse, and sometimes they don't. That is an imprecise solution.

In the future when (not a matter of if) PSN gets shut down, any PS runs that have a PSP/PSTV release would require people to jailbreak their hardware to bring in the .ISO of their game. That's a a real concern going forward on all PS boards that are dominated by PSN downloads.

RE: splitting all PS platforms of the game into their own small boards, I always felt this solution to be messy unless there is some true distinction between the various platforms. In terms of this game the only ones I can think of are physically swapping the disc (whatever) and easy analog movement access during a run. This already exists in terms of filters, but no one ever bothers with using them since they are essentially 'hidden' leaderboards.

I may be supremely ignorant, but is the discrepancy between PSP and bizhawk truly 2-3 minutes? Seems really low for a 2.5 hr run.

What upsets people who don't have hardware is they feel kneecapped by the concept that Emulator should emulate PS1 load times. Which yes, limits whether you can get a top 3 time, and also makes the run longer assuming all else is equal.

Chasing parity with PSP/PSTV loads is only relevant if you want to maintain a single board.

There are different definitions regarding fairness (refer to my posts on page 1). There is fairness in the sense of everyone is on a level playing field, and fairness that we are fair to what is and is not fast in terms of loads. It's only within recent times that fast, stable, and pretty effective emulation is more of a reality via DuckStation and BeetleHW via RetroArch.

In terms of PSTV/PSP style loads, you can achieve somewhat similar or slightly slower loads to that, but naturally it requires tuning. Equivalency may be achievable but would be tricky. If you were to have faster loads than hardware I think emulator should be separated, case closed.

I completely understand the logic that some may want segregation so they don't have to deal with the competition that exists under the current leaderboard paradigm. But there is the line of logic that if you build it, they will come.

For myself, I feel pretty mixed on how people obsess over leaderboard position rather than running the game to the run the game. The aesthetics of speedrunning are more important than I wish they were.

In the end, I do want more people running a game, not less. But I do have doubt about vague claims that 'I would run the game IF x, y, and z were changed about the board.' Their motivation is somewhat questionable.

That being said, a turbo button allowed, Fast Disc Speed style emu board would be intriguing. Further, an edited ISO file that allows skippable cutscenes would be even more intriguing. While such a thing would not be vanilla Parasite Eve, at least it would make EMU something different.

Worthwhile mentioning that the MGS1 board is now experimenting with an emulator category, DuckStation only that basically is a supercharged Fast Disc Speed. This FDS (in the case of MGS1) is minutes faster than PSTV/PSP. You can find info about the settings here: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/thread/2u4je/2#tt3qi While I cannot confirm the stability for other games like Parasite Eve, the community voted on creating a separated emulator category that allows for this.

I don't think anyone would dispute that standard disc speed is at a heavy disadvantage that makes some people say 'why bother.' Some view speedrunning more from a competitive/leaderboard standpoint rather than a personal growth matter. Additionally, perception is reality. Even though filtering by console will show what the actual fastest run is under those conditions, the vast majority of people do not care and just care about what is presented without any user input on the leaderboard. I've seen this time and time again on PS leaderboards.

While I feel the current leaderboard setup on this board and others is more honest to what is and isn't faster and keeps PS1 emulation to just that, emulating the PS1's performance and loads in the long term could make people shy away from running PS games.

Retroarch with the Beetle PSX core (0.9.44.1 9589ddd or later) is now allowed for Standard Disc Speed emulation. The following settings are required. While in theory Beetle could be used for Fast Disc Speed emulation, it cannot compete with DuckStation's speed in this context.

• CPU Dynarec: Disabled (Beetle Interpreter) [Default]
• Cycles: 128 (Default)
• CPU Frequency Overclock: 100% (Native)
• GTE Overclock: Disabled
• GPU Overclock: 1x (native)
• Skip Bios: Disabled
• Access Method: Synchronous
• Loading Speed: 2x (native)
• PAL (European) Video Timing Override: OFF
Recommended: Keep PGXP Disabled

Hi all,

So I recently noticed that the rules for runs are different between PS2 and PSP. PS2 requires the runner to start from selecting New Game and PSP allows you to select from Stage 1. This skips the tutorial song.

I would like to create parity between the versions and allow the PS2 version to start from selecting Stage 1. It would cut out ~15 seconds from the run that I don't think anyone really cares about.

Thoughts?

@bastianfrusciantebastianfrusciante

2a will probably achieve this just as well, if not more so depending on how we structure 2b. All emulators as they stand aim for similar loadtimes.

In reality, 2a is more simple than 2b b/c there is no possibility of a Disc Speed arms race. If we decide to limit FDS to only 4x speed (2x is default speed), then there should (very hard to predict several years out) be parity going into the future. It's possible though that 4x on DuckStation for example could still be faster in 3 years with more development. Standard Disc Speed emulation being slightly more accurate would be so minute that it would be hard to notice.

I vote for 2a.

The purpose of psone emulation is to do just that, emulate the original psone. The fact that official solutions do not match original psone loads with Fast Disc Speed (a setting provided by Sony) is irrelevant to me because it is an officially released Sony TM solution. I don't care how bad the emulation is by default (e.g. PSClassic), it should be on the board just as much as any other version. An unofficial solution by comparison that doesn't pass a certain bar is not worth our time (e.g. Bleemcast).

This is a position based off of my personal biases: official solutions > unofficial solutions. You may consider it an artificial barrier, but it keeps competition simple, standard, and expected in terms of emulator.

Separating out emulator fulfills the desires of some to avoid comparisons to console and have their fenced in competition. As far as the board is concerned, you have achieved a very high quality of life because the segregation makes your runs relatively faster and elevates you over an actual psone! The addition of FDS emulation puts aside all the runs done on emulator so far and 'resets' the board. If we are fencing in the competition, why put aside the years of emulator runs? Compete against those!

Since it was brought up here, I will explain why the Crash Team Racing orientation of EMU/DISC/PSN is not a great fit. PS2 Fast Disc Speed (the fastest way to play DISC) is known to be unstable for MGS1 depending on the PS2 model and some other unknown factors. Creating a competition centered around an inconsistent solution sounds pretty bad in the long term. It also means PS3 Digital is stuck with PSN, which from a fairness perspective is pretty silly. So either you make separate boards for every console variation, or just accept what is fast and what is slow.

Worthwhile mentioning as well for further context about Fast Loads in MGS1 console:

PS2 Fast Disc Speed's stability entirely depends on the PS2. Some PS2s commonly crash using FDS (elevators, certain loadzones, etc.). Plus, PS2's FDS is the slowest of the platforms that allow it. While PSTV FDS is more stable, the cost barrier, increased input latency and chance of input drops on PSTV annoy people. Anyone familiar with PC emulation knows that emulators have a certain amount of input lag due to emulation process itself, but from general consensus PSTV latency is more variable.

FDS Emulator could introduce a certain level of complexity to setup for the runner, as a disclaimer.

Hi all,

Ongoing discussion in the MGSR discord has brought into question a handful of aspects of emulator on the leaderboard. I will try to present it here as objectively as possible.

Recently, DuckStation was added to the board as an emulator with the caveat of underclocking the CPU to add in frame lag. This frustrated some runners as not only was the CPU underclock amount dependent on your particular PC, but not every emulator currently allowed on the board has similar lag behavior (Mednafen and Bizhawk have a more steady framerate than DuckStation underclocked or epsxe). Additionally, it represents another setting you have to tinker with before getting into the game, which acts as a barrier to entry.

Thus the point was brought up that DuckStation should be kept to default CPU clock speed, which is fairly similar to the game's performance on digital platforms.

Regardless of this restriction, the conversation of whether or not emulator should be on the same board with official hardware came up. As it stands, all playstation platforms battle it out together, forcing the user to filter to compare based off of similar speeds. This is both fair (the honest truth that whatever is the fastest stands at the top, meaning PSPGO/PSP/PSTV/PSVITA), and unfair (if you are playing on emulator, there is a lower ceiling of best times compared to faster hardware).

As time goes on, the possibility of fast disc speed style emulation is becoming more and more of a reality, with a combination of CPU overclocking, disc caching (in the case of retroarch beetle), and disc speed multipliers. While inaccurate to PSone loads, this would be a great quality of life improvement. However not everyone's PC is up to the task of overclocking the emulator CPU or caching ISO in RAM. This would create a similar hardware arm's race problem to official hardware.

We have also seen some boards in recent times (Dino Crisis 2, Resident Evil 1) require DuckStation ONLY for their emulator board. https://www.speedrun.com/residentevil/thread/5zg8d The concept of requiring only one emulator (or a more narrow set of options) could be done for this game to keep everything on the same level as possible, but would reduce the possible options for the player.

So, there are multiple points for discussion here.

1. Should emulators be kept to default settings as often as possible, even if that means sacrificing 'accuracy' in certain respects? Keep in mind that there are certain settings we'd still need to control for.

2. Should emulators return to being a segregated leaderboard to create a platform for:

a ) as similar to original hardware in terms of loads as possible
b ) aim for fastest load times, essentially disregarding how emulators have been handled for the past 4 years?

3. Should certain emulators be sunset (for example ePSXe, older versions of bizhawk/mednafen) to reduce the complexities of leaderboard management?

Please respond here with your preferred option. If your preferred variation isn't the most popular, we will take that as a vote for the Option in general. Explanation of your reasoning is not required but is requested!

Option 1: Emulator settings become more streamlined but do not get separated from hardware.
Option 1 Alpha: Deprecation/Sunset of ePSXe/etc.
Option 1 Bravo: Keep ePSXe/etc.

Option 2: Emulator settings become more streamlined but DO get seperated from hardware.
Option 2 Alpha: Maintain psone load speeds, but not in game CDROM frame lag.
Option 2 Bravo: Change the board to Fast Disc Speed style emulation

This poll will be up for a week, after which we will adjust the leaderboard accordingly. Regardless of what happens, my testing of RetroArch Beetle shows it to be very good, as long as certain settings are used. It could be key in the circumstances of Option2B being the most popular.

Seems like a different kind of run/category to me if you are totally skipping songs versus skipping portions of songs.

DuckStation is approved for speedrunning Metal Gear Solid and is the recommended emulator to use over ePSXe.

Required settings for SDS:

Console Settings
CPU Clock Speed Control Disabled.
Read Speedup: None (Double Speed)
Use Read Thread (Asynchronous) Unchecked

Emulation Settings
Runahead: Disabled

Display Settings
Show Messages Checked (if a savestate is used, we'll know)
VSync Unchecked

Enhancement Settings
Force NTSC Timings (60hz-on-PAL) Unchecked (PAL speed should be PAL speed and not adjusted by the emulator)

You can check the current date of your version via the General Settings in the Automatic Updater section (2021-01-11), and then post that in your description.

New Game vs. New Game +

New Game is starting from just that, a new game 'fresh' save

New Game + typically means in games and speedruns starting from a completed save with additional goodies. The primary goodies in MGS3 being Patriot and unlocked camos

Purely aesthetic thing, the transparency on the board for the panels is way too much and the colors clash. Background image is blurry and ugly. Default theme would look less janky.

Disclaimer: I voted against the original separation of HD versions to begin with. Even under the current structure, I don't really think PSNOW is significantly different from doing a run on PS3 due to how the service works.

Also in terms of the long-term prospects, PSNow being a streaming service makes me hesitant in it being compared just and only to itself. At any time Sony could shut down the service, leaving a frozen board. I will say that PSVita has its argument for separation due to the nature of the hardware. But I don't expect anyone to take such a pursuit seriously.

I think part of the confusion comes from 'HD Edition PS3' being called that as a category, when in reality it includes platforms outside of strictly running on a PS3. Perhaps HD Edition Sony would be a better name.

Good to see you Leo!

The requirement of deleting a save is only relevant if you already completed a cycle or have completed a run. As you may recall, we had a discussion a few years ago about the effects of "NG+." The conclusion we arrived at was to require a new game save to avoid the issue. That discussion can be found at the following thread: https://www.speedrun.com/p.t./thread/2dfbd

Hi!

To be clear, not all runs use JUST the static camera (aka Snake Eater camera). In fact, many runs use a mix of two. Some even use just the dynamic camera (aka Subsistence camera).

The basic reason: visual cues for movements. It's a lot easier to have consistent movement and lines with the Snake Eater camera. The Subsistence camera requires you to control the camera while moving, which can be a pain. Also, the Subsistence camera can create frame lag.

Personally, I use a mix of the two, depending on the room.

Hi all,

Thanks for continuing to keep this game alive and improving the records! I wanted to provide some clarification and rule updates for the future.

I've had a couple runners question when exactly the timer stops for Flashlight%, as the original sentence wasn't clear. To clarify, Flashlight timing does not end when pickup animation starts, but when the flashlight is off the ground. Take a look at AgentofChaos's PB, where the brightness makes it very clear.

When I started modding this game, I interpreted "ends when you pick up the flashlight" as literally the moment it is lifted off the ground.

My suggestion is, if you plan on doing Flashlight runs, please play on max brightness to make it obvious, and DON'T SPLIT EARLY!

In addition, I am implementing a rule not to obscure the bottom right corner of the game capture. This is so the triple circle load watermark is not obscured when loading into the game.

This is technically already done for this game, considering that emulator (PC?) has its own subcategory, "All"

Thanks for sharing!

I'm unfamiliar with using this fork of Mednafen and the options available to you. A set of screenshots could be helpful with that. As far as I can tell, the loadtimes are similar to other emulators, which is a good thing. If you do a run, I can look at it more closely, especially since I don't know how it runs in game.

What release of the game were you using to test?