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100% could be "collect every big music CD" rather than every small CD

Just saying

 
 

THAT is how I was able to kill firebug just by spamming punches in the corner. Fists were sometimes doing double damage.

 
 

Three times, Chambers. 😬

Also not every enemy in the game can survive a punch, but its rare.

I know it won't change anything, but personally I prefer my version of the pacifist run because its the Batman%. Batman punches people, but doesn't kill them. Batman won't kill, but doesn't have to save you.

It also changed the actual game because while you want ammo, you can only get it via farming -- not from killing enemies. That is the main difference. Because taking hits, and thus deaths is mandatory (and you can't use a continue on a boss) when you can't kill, you have to use a lot of despawns strategies and intended deaths. The routing is entirely different from any%, even with hitstun.

I know the rules won't change, but just wanted to throw that out there.

 
 

@Backslash if you're making the call, we need to know what constitutes whether a category should be created

 
 

I think the big holdup here is there is nothing that says a category is good or bad other than the number of runs and nothing that says whether a category should exist in the first place other than "it is a category that is run". If everyone posting in this thread decided to run "Ninja Gaiden 3: Sword + Windmill shuriken only" you'd get a totally new category with more runs than any others. It's how the Pacifist runs in NG1 started. The issue now is that categories are starting before there are runners.

I think there's going to be room for Low% and Pacifist runs no matter what because they're generally staples, but I think we'd need to cater to the runs that exist first and foremost. That would mean, at minimum, a Low% (expending ninpo allowed, pickups allowed) and a Pacifist+Low% category.

I don't see an issue with multiple "misc" categories, misc is for the more niche ones. If there is an issue with multiple categories, a mod needs to dictate the requirement for creating and/or keeping a category. Any% (J) was created because someone just said "hey I think I'm going to run this" and it was empty for over half a year, so I don't think anything has been really set in stone as far as "requirements".

I could go on what I'd do to determine creating categories and what is "legitimate", but I'm not a mod. We just need a statement from a mod on "what constitutes a new category".

LordMike111686, twin0mega and MESSI_82 like this. 
 

Reposting due to deletion via backup:

I think the best solution is to create categories and rules that fit with existing runs.There has never been a pacifist or Low% run in Ninja Gaiden 3 with the proposed "old" rules -- there's no reason to cater to dead rulesets. If someone wants to run those specific rules later, they can do so and then we'll have runs to use and those categories could be discussed at that time. Discussing them prior to a run existing doesn't make much sense.

Currently we have runs for:

No pickups - Uranium Anchor
Any % (no ninpo) - Overswarm
Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Nanjimao
Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - Overswarm, though I wasn't done and didn't submit it
Pacifist + Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Gusmancini

There's no reason to fit the NG1 / NG2 rules. I mean, NG2 doesn't even follow their own rules -- everyone expends ninpo there too. The rules were made by players who aren't going to be participating in NG3 at all and the players we have aren't against the minor modifications at least -- no reason for a rules purity test that invalidates several runs already on the boards.

My suggestion would be creating the 5 categories listed above (6 counting Low % J) as miscellaneous categories. Put the appropriate runs in the appropriate categories. Rather than voting on rules, use the rules that people are already submitting times for. People not running a category shouldn't be determining rules for people that do run it.

None of the suggested categories are particularly popular -- the only ones with recent runs are mine and they still have a grand total of 1 run. I'm not against a general policy of requiring X runs for a category to be created so there aren't several one-run categories. That said I think each of the categories is useful in its own right:

No pickups - Arbitrarily difficult due to "oops, reset!". Has routing strategies based off of the 10 ninpo + windmill shuriken. I personally wouldn't run this and Uranium Anchor seemed to think no one else really would either!

Any% (no ninpo) - A "sword only" category, allows for the sword upgrade, health, 1ups, etc. I personally enjoyed this as a category when it was the Low % (J) rules, moreso than Any %. The equivalent in NG2 would allow for shadow clones, but no ninpo.

Low % - Like the above category, but with no health / 1ups / sword upgrade. Tbh, I find this category boring, but Low % is a pretty general staple across games. This is the only category that requires killing bosses with the "normal" sword.

Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - the "true pacifist" run, is not represented in the NG series. When I ran this it required routing to get the right pickups to get the right boss kills - they were basically any% boss kills.

Pacifist + Low % - Like the above, except you don't route pickups. Boss kills are Low% boss kills. This is gus' run and is arguably the most difficult.

The categories are all pretty granular and equally unpopular, so there's no clear way to choose one to be allowed over another. I think the first question to ask is "what constitutes creating a category" -- if one-run categories that are unique apply, all of the above work. If there's some sort of limitation that should be decided early on and then have categories follow those rules.

MESSI_82 likes this. 
 

I don't mean to be aggressive, but I also don't plan to hold back and accept the status quo. Mods are not being consistent, even after multiple rule changes. From what I've seen there hasn't been much discussion about what should be, only justification for what is, and with the exception of my run being rejected rule changes have been made to allow existing runs. That rubs me the wrong way.

The first time this happened with the Pacifist run, Messi saw me running and noted that I seemed to be breaking the rules -- I told him the rules the actual category had, we noticed a disconnect, and he contacted the mods about the discrepancy. Garadas very kindly sent me a message telling me he was told that the rules were "always like that" and it was a mistake on the mods part. I told him a few suggestions for further rule changes to fit their intention and that was that. At the time I was unaware the mods he was talking to were mods of a different game, and I just dropped the pacifist run.

This is the second time NG1/2 mods have decided that the rules need to be changed based on my run, this time on a run already accepted and up for a month. The rules still aren't even up-to-date -- you can still pick up extra Lives in pacifist and Low%, and I'm sure someone else would be in the same situation I'm in when they use the extra lives for more health refills in a pacifist run. The "last minute rule change" shouldn't be a thing at all, let alone twice.

 
 

@Beerfullofbelly I'm not against similar games attempting to create consistency across the games (Ninja Gaiden Trilogy runs exist for a reason), but I am against entrants in only one game determining the rules of another. It really is a NG1/2 clique, I checked each name myself. Their desires aren't necessarily wrong or ill advised, but they shouldn't be the arbiters of it because they don't actually play the game and this leads to poor outcomes. I agree that its ludicrous, but my run was rejected and the rules changed by a mod who has no experience with this game and, in doing so, simultaneously invalidated two other years-old runs in his inexperience. That's not a sustainable structure and a poor precedent; there was no review of how these runs would affect existing runs or what would be best for NG3 -- just "is this like the rules we made for NG1". When people say "the ninja gaiden community" they're referring to the community for their game, not this one.

This is also a pattern, and not just a one-off mistake like I believed the first time this happened. The mods in charge of the rules for this board are not creating consistency across the boards or even within the ruleset themselves and, given the lack of attention to the NG3 sub-categories in terms of runs, have arguably constrained NG3 by demanding adherence to what is obviously an unpopular ruleset. The rules have changed, what? Three times? Four, in less than two months? Its a series of half-hearted band-aids meant to make sure things are like the other games, regardless of how the actual runners of the games have interpreted those rules. It doesn't make any sense to follow the rules that someone made for a different game before this site even existed.

The only players who have attempted Low%/Pacifist runs in NG1 that have attempted any runs in NG3 are you, Arcus, and gusmancini. The only person with a Low% or Pacifist run in both is gusmancini, and his run was four years ago. There is no "ninja gaiden community" crossover into Ninja Gaiden 3. Maybe there will be in the future, but there certainly isn't now. Why should an arbitrary group of people's arbitrary ruleset be arbitrarily applied to a different game?

You have greater merit towards NG3 than those who made the earlier decisions because you have actually run the game -- arguably more, since you're experienced in other NGaiden games as well -- but NG3 players should be using NG1 as a guideline, not a rulebook. I see multiple people discussing their different versions of what they think Low% means, but none of them have ever ran Low% or even intend to (Color Theory aside). The response to someone running a dead category with the rules as listed shouldn't be "change the rules and retroactively reject his run", especially when the run itself can't be moved because its a unique category in its own right.

The Any% (No ninpo) was my favorite challenge for Ninja Gaiden 3 but has no equal in NG1 or NG2 -- the closest is Low %, which is markedly different and not nearly enjoyable to me. It's a unique challenge in that its not as brutal as the US version, but you can no longer skip several sections via the firewheel and the boss battles have to be revisited with new strategies due to the lack of ninpo. It's fun! I would love to have a discussion about it with people that play NG3 (and would love to see people run it and had planned to come back to it myself in 2019), but in this thread I see a whole lot of names I don't recognize from NG3 boards.

If the NG1 moderators want the rules listed to be as identical as possible to NG1, transfer the existing runs into a new category with the rules that the runs were originally run with. If possible, alter the rules for "NG3 only" so that way existing runs aren't rejected. Then they can have their empty graveyard categories with NG1 rules and NG3 can also have categories with actual runs.

 
 

I'd also like to add:

Guide to good moderation from SR.com:

One of the golden rules when it comes to game moderation is:
“You do not decide for the community, the community decides for you.”
Or alternatively:
“You are a representative of the community, not the ruler.”

Right now the entirety of the Low % (J) community is myself, soon to be followed by Color Theory as he has run the game and plans to run this particular category in the future. I'd imagine we could come up with a list of rules for the category in about 2 minutes. Let us?

 
 

@Angrylanks the rules didn't pre-emptively exist -- low% and pacifist don't have universal meanings across speedrun.com and there were no runs of Low% J. The "view rules" button doesn't provide clarification, it provides the rules. The rules aren't even self-evident in the slightest just based on the titles -- pacifist should just be "no non-mandatory enemies can be killed" with no additional changes.... but the people who actually run the category made the rules.

I just started speedrunning in July, haven't played NG1 since I was a child, and never saw NG2 until this year. How would I know what another game's community considers what the rules should be? Even in the case of pacifist runs, where gus ran using NG1 pacifist rules instead of NG3 pacifist rules, gus didn't follow the NG1 rules. Its being viewed as okay because.. why? Its older than a month so he gets a pass? Some unwritten understanding that people came up with before speedrun.com was even created, despite it being expressly forbidden in the rules?

It's bonkers that people keep saying "Ninja Gaiden community" when all the posters in the thread debating the rules only played NG1 and NG2. This is remarkably inconsistent and ultimately stems from the fact that you're trying to cram legacy NG1 rules into a separate game.

Low % (J) was fun to me because it was Any % with no ninpo usage. The vast majority of NG3 "fast strats" involve using the fire wheel and ninpo in key places. Playing through without ninpo brought about a markedly different experience using just the sword, but still enjoyable.

Pacifist (J) before the rule change was enjoyable to me because it involved routing (get the pickups you need for the boss) that was difficult compared to Any%, but just as necessary. You had to manage your health + deaths to make sure you had the right health/ninpo/art for the boss fight, otherwise you'd end up with a slow "low %" style boss fight.

These are both valid categories and were distinct and enjoyable compared to Any %.

In the five plus years this board has existed, there have been three runs in the non-Any% categories: Nanjimao's Low % US, which breaks the listed rules, gusmancini's Pacifist run, which breaks the listed rules, and my Low % (J) run, which didn't break the rules when submitted but will according to the rule change.

You're trying to tell me that "rules already existed and were agreed upon by the community", and I'm telling you that they obviously weren't. With your new rule changes, there are 0 valid runs for any non-any% category for Ninja Gaiden III. None of you play the game actively and only one person has ever submitted any time at all to the game.

Here's my suggestions:

Remove mods that don't play the game. Just because you play NG1 or NG2 is irrelevant to NG3. If you want to be a mod for NG3, play the game and submit a time so you have a deeper understanding. If you don't intuitively know why using up your ninpo early in a run to make your count 0 -- even if it doesn't kill anything -- is a game changer when it comes to boss fights, you shouldn't be making rules that affect that.

Add mods that do play the game. There are several high profile players for this game that I'm sure would be willing, you have your pick of the litter.

Instead of rejecting my run, create an alternate category: Any % (no ninpo). Rules the same as Any %, except Ninpo may not be used for any reason. "But that's a meme category" isn't really a valid defense, as your current choice of action is bringing the number of runs from a 5+ year category from "1" to "0". Why this wasn't discussed -- and why I wasn't contacted at all -- is beyond me, but I'd imagine it has something to do with it not being a NG1 category.

Create and maintain categories that people are willing to play.

There hasn't been a pacifist run in four years. The one time there was, the rules were changed to prevent the run from being submitted so it matched a different game. Have people who actually play Ninja Gaiden 3 decide what "pacifist" really means. Other games have simple, straightforward rules -- "no killing non-mandatory enemies". Maybe NG3's rules need to be more complicated, maybe they don't -- the NG3 players should decide, not NG1 players trying to make a different game fit old SDA rules for theirs. Personally I don't think Pacifist should be "Low % and also don't kill enemies".

There has been only one Low% US and one Low% J run. One has been rejected after a rule change (mine), and one should be rejected shortly as it clearly violates two rules. Have actual NG3 players decide what "Low %" means and alter the rules accordingly. If I wanted to fit the idea of Low %, I would allow the picking up of ninpo but not the usage of it.

What I wouldn't do is then go to the NG1 boards and change their rules to fit mine because reasons. It is incredibly disheartening to have this happen not once, but twice, from people who don't actually play the game but somehow moderate it. The rules have been changed multiple times now for multiple categories -- my run was rejected, another was moved, and checking Low% for NG3 now I see another had the rules altered to allow their run instead of rejecting it. The moderation has been incredibly inconsistent.

ShikenNuggets likes this. 
 

I'd also like to challenge the notion that "things were always done in a particular way for the NG series". That may be the case for NG1 and NG2, but it clearly hasn't been for NG3. I would know, because I'm the only person to ever run the category. 😛

 
 

They didn't until a short while ago. NG3's pacifist run was "Don't kill non-boss enemies" and NG3's Low% was "don't use ninpo".

By your statement, it looks like multiple runs need to rejected in NG2 and NG3.

 
 

So pickups and ninpo are allowed in runs for games that expressly forbid them, but pickups, health, and sword upgrades are not allowed in a category that allowed for them. Neat.

Is there a particular reason NG1 mods are controlling the rules for a different game they do not play?

To be clear, I'm not against the sword upgrade not being allowed in Low%, there's nothing wrong with that being part of Low%. I am against people changing rules after runs have already been submitted that fit the rules because it doesn't fit an abstract ideal brought over from another game's runners. The people who run the category should make the category. Just like how "Pacifist" in Batman is just "don't kill non-boss enemies" but NG1's Pacifist is a bunch of random "and then" rules -- because the people running it wanted the "and then" rules. NG1's pacifist run makes no sense whatsoever and I think it makes for a far worse category, but I don't run it and the people who do did like those rules.

This is the second time this has happened to me with Ninja Gaiden 3 rules being changed after-the-fact.

The first time I was running Pacifist (J) and made several improvements to gusmancini's run, both routing and otherwise. One big improvement was boss fights -- gus didn't pick up sword / ninpo for the boss fights, despite it being allowed in the rules. He essentially made up his own rules for how he wanted to play and these rules weren't expressed in that category for over four years. After running it for a few days, it was discovered by a few runners that I was running the pacifist NG3 run and the rules were changed to fit Ninja Gaiden 1. I stopped running Pacifist at that point, because the previous rules -- "Don't kill non-boss enemies" -- resulted in an interesting run, the new rules were just boring stuff tacked on that diluted the run. Wasn't a fan, but them's the breaks -- mods made a mistake, it happens, they caught it early, and it matches with an existing run.

This was after my Low % (J) run was already submitted, which again followed the existing rules. Not only did it follow the rules, but it followed it better than gus' Pacifist run. He used ninpo to clear out his ninpo count, allowing him to safely do things I couldn't in Low %. I even mentioned in my submission that I had to reset for this reason and suggested a rule change because it felt dumb, but those were the rules at the time of submission.

Now gus' run gets to stay despite breaking the rules because.... ? And Nanjimao's run gets to stay as well, despite breaking two rules? There's not really any wiggle room on that one. It's true that "no pickups" is a dumb and arbitrary legacy rule but it is the rule. I used pickups (within the rules) in Low % because it helped with audio cues and timing, but it was allowed; he just made a mistake in his run.

What I ran was NG3 Low % (J), which is different than a NG3 Any% run and clearly not comparable. What you've changed it to is "Sword only no pickups".

If a category's single run can be rejected due to future rule changes, I really am requesting those other runs be rejected for not following the assigned rules that currently exist for those categories. I'm not expecting to always like the rules for a category, but I am expecting the rules to stay consistent after they've been submitted.

A question I have for you guys though -- who, exactly, are you changing these rules for? You have a NG1 clique that decides NG3 should be more like NG1 despite being an entirely different game... but for who? Would you be rejecting multiple runs if multiple people had submitted Low% J runs similar to mine?

 
 

You're gonna need to check all the NG2 runs too, looks like Gus uses ninpo in NG2 as well:

Just as an FYI, having 0 ninpo is a large advantage in NG3 because it allows you safely slash cancel without accidentally using ninpo on a boss.

I even had this text added to my run:

"I would suggest that for the rules it be added that you can get rid of ninpo, just not kill enemies with it. I followed the rules to the letter, but had to throw away a few runs due to accidental ninpo that did nothing!"

 
 

Requesting removal of Nanjimao's Low% (US) run:

Picks up ninpo:

Uses ninpo:

Requesting removal of Gusmancini's Pacifist (J) run:

Uses ninpo:

 
 

@twin0mega

The "no sword upgrade" wasn't part of the rules when I ran it. I followed the rules that had been there since at least 2012.

Also not sure why people who don't run the category or game are trying to make rule changes after-the-fact to match an entirely different game. There's only one person in this thread who has even played the game!

I didn't know that I needed to check with the Ninja Gaiden 1 community before I played Ninja Gaiden 3. Definitely avoiding the Ninja Gaiden games.

 
 

So I complete a run in a category with no runs submitted ever with the rules that are posted, run is accepted, then the rules change a month later because a different game has different rules for its Low%?

I'd like to request gusmancini's Pacifist run be rejected as well -- he uses ninpo when the rules specifically state "no ninpo". I had to reset multiple Low% J runs due to accidental usage of ninpo even though it hit nothing. >:|

Ninja Gaiden community is weird.

 
 

It looks like there's a faster time on a japanese video hosting site -- contacting that guy to see if he would allow us to submit here.

 
 

There's no video for the only run?

I plan on running this in 2019 if I can find the time, but don't really want to compete with a mystery video. Can the video be replaced, or the run removed?

 
 

I could definitely see the "main" category requirement being a full game (meaning start -> ending), but my point was more the arbitrary nature of the various boards. Speedrunning is more or less fragmented at the moment, but it is growing. As people stop running (but remain inactive mods), certain runners become mods on dozens of boards, and new blood come in with new ideas, arbitrary can lead to unnecessary sluggishness or conflict.

Imaproshaman likes this. 

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