South GeorgiaTiming now starts on the first frame of the black screen with the text "I Luv LC…". That is before the initial cutscene, but after the splash screen. This goes for any% and 100%. The end of the timing stays the same for both categories.
The reason for this is that the ingame clock continues to run during cutscenes. The point for the start is picked because it's before the initial cutscene and if you want a fast time you'll have to skip it. It is also after the inconsistent splash screen, where you don't have any controll over.
Since some mission are bound to the ingame time, a possible abuse for the old timing is waiting for the initial cutscene to affect the mission order.
All times on the leaderboards have been adjust. I added a few sec to every run, whether they waited in the cutscene or not, which was the average additional time. Except for the WR which I retimed by counting the frames to be acurate. If your run had to get more than 14 sec on top, good for you. If you are not happy with the addition, go ahead and improve your PB.
It's a bit late for this post, since the timing was changed a few days ago, but better late then never.
Timing now starts on the first frame of the black screen with the text "Clean and Serene…". That is before the initial cutscene, but after the splash screen. This goes for any% and 100%. The end of the timing stays the same for both categories.
The reason for this is that the ingame clock continues to run during cutscenes. The point for the start is picked because it's before the initial cutscene and if you want a fast time you'll have to skip it. It is also after the inconsistent splash screen, where you don't have any controll over.
Since the weather pattern is bound to the ingame clock, a possible abuse for the old timing is waiting for the initial cutscene to have no rain in the first mission. There might be other abuses, but since the category has gained a lot of popularity in the recent times, it's better to change it before more is found.
All times on the leaderboards have been adjust. I added 14 sec to every run, whether they waited in the cutscene or not, which was the average additional time. Except for the WR which I retimed by counting the frames to be acurate. If your run had to get more than 14 sec on top, good for you. If you are not happy with the addition, go ahead and improve your PB.
Since the topic is resolved, I will lock this Thread now.
If anybody has new/different claims start a new thread without insulting anyone who disagrees. Also make sure to follow S tips on how to make a thread where people will take you seriously.
I remember that stream Dragoon. No Dupes, no Dodo in under 1:20.
I think 6 min time lost by not using Dodo justifies a category, but "Beat the Game (no Dodo)" or rather no flight, since you have to get into a Dodo at least once to beat it, is a valid goal. And in that case it's always if enough people run that… Since nobody seems to be interested that, it probably won't happen.
That suggestion is good odyssic. I don't know why i didn't think about that earlier.
It's true that it's a thing that you can do on every PC, but I think the reasoning behind this is different from what you think Kyle.
It's more for a future reference for runs. If you want to check a run on the leaderboard to see certain strategies used and maybe compare timings with your own you want as much information as possible. You can easily tell if a runner duped because it uses a completly different route. But noticing fps toggling is a more difficult. Right now you could just ask a runner about what he did in certain parts and if he is not a dick about it, he would tell you. But the leaderboard is also an archive and if somebody goes inactive that knowledge is lost.
It's not about calling out people for using something or not. Things that are not obvious to see should be disclosed, otherwise it is holding back the community as a whole. Hiding strats is not a good thing, even without evil intend, since sharing stuff is what makes speedrunning a game better for everyone.
Hiding or leaving out information is counter-intuitive to the leaderboard is an archive concept.
Mentioned this in karls chat
Helicopter blade spin strats for chopper checkpoints
If you get into a helicopter it takes about 4 sec till the blades spin fast enough to take off. But the timer starts immediately. So you get in and wait till the blade is spinning with full speed. Then you get out and back in immediately. You can take off without the 4 sec wait.
And another thing for helicopters. Their [ultra pro mod edit. -S.] speed going backwards is as fast as forwards. Sometimes it can be beneficial going backwards instead of doing a 180° turn. Like 2nd last -> last checkpoint in vice point.
Also added Framelimiter rule.
In Dirtring the timer only starts when you get on the Sanchez that is provided by the game. You can take your own Sanchez into the stadium and use that to collect all but one checkpoint without having the timer run. Then use the given bike for the last checkpoint and have a 3 sec time or so.
That's why i added a rule to not allow that. Since rta would be way slower using this strat compared to the "intended" way.
Did anyone time classic strats for waste not want knots with the heli from paper trail? Since it has a fairly long drive as well
paper trail -> heli wnwk -> heli 3LC
Kyle i think we are drifting apart in what we are saying.
This poll is about a rule change and my main complaint with A is what gets written as new rule above the leaderboard. It's clear with B but not with A. Rules need to be clear for everyone. Not just from your own perspective as somebody with 1000+ hours of speedrunning gta4.
For example. In 3 weeks is agdq. Somebody sees speedruns for the first time in his life and decides to run his fav game gta4. And all he reads is the rules. He might understand something different than you. And then when he submits a run it does not meet up with the expectations of the mod. Drama ensured.
You say common sense has to be applied, but did you look at paragraph 2 of the rules? That is something that I would call common sense and yet there are many people who believe a run is invalid if there is no timer running in the video or if you split wrong. So it is a good thing to keep it. No drama. What is common sense to me, doesn't apply to everybody and i can accept that.
I'm not pro or against framelimiting. I am against unclear rules. Unclear rules cause drama and confusion. We had that the last couple of weeks because the rules are not clear in this regard. That has to change.
You are talking about common sense and the common sense for pretty much every game is does it give an advatage over people who don't use it
You do 2 runs. They have the exact same rng you have a good day and get perfect execution both runs. In one of these runs you under/overclock via hotkey. Which run will have a better time? Since both had the exact same execution and rng, is the run with the lower time really better than the other?
What if you have 2 runners. Runner A didn't alter his fps. B did and has a time that is a few seconds lower. But B died in shootouts in his run and flipped cars, while A didn't. Is B the better gta speedrunner because his time is lower even though he is clearly worse at what gta is about, driving and shooting?
The case for does it give an adavantage is not even exclusive to speedrunning. For example esport. You can't use a wallhack or radar in csgo to see where the opponnents are even though there soundcards on the market that promise such a feature. Or aimbots are programmed into the internal memory of a mouse and work via plug and play.
Even going to regular sports. Did you see how many rules and limitations there are in F1 or other racing to reduce the effect of technology to have it come down to the driving skill?
I won't dig too deep into this, since i don't have a current gpu to confirm things. But lets go with this example since you mentioned mouse drivers.
Most Keyboard/Mouse software allows you to bind macros aswell. For example a start/execute a piece of other software. It's pretty easy to make multiple config files with different vd and write a .bat to copy the needed one into the folder.
Can you say that a runner that uses something to limit his fps mid run is on equal terms with a runner that isn't? No because even if they have the exact same hardware, execution and rng, the person that toggles fps will have a better time in the end. Does using the mouse driver to swap left and right click give you an advantage over another player? No.
I know that limiting the fps is not the end of the spectrum, but it's certainly not at the start either. That wasn't my point with listing all those scenarios. I want a line to be drawn where things stop. If a new runner comes a long he can't be bothered to read 20 long forum threads of discusstion. He sees the rules on the leaderboard and the current wr run and maybe a few more. And according to that he might use his installed software to gain an edge in the run.
Things will need to be added to the rules after this poll. How would you word the rules if A wins so it doesn't end in the one person with the best use of other software has the best time.
Not really everything. Like the vehicle density thing. Both big GPU vendors have game optimization tools bundled with the driver. They are supposed to change the ingame settings of games to an optimum of your pc, but they can change them to what ever you want. That includes vd.
So using bundled software to change fps is fine while changing vd isn't?
My opinion is and was always 1 physical button press = 1 actual button press. So using a keyboard software to remap a button is fine but bind 1 button to limit your fps during the helicopter phase and you might already save up to 100 button presses.
Warning: Irony ahead.
When we take because it's possible on pc in consideration, why stop at framelimiting?
All the settings are stored in a text file on your pc. Why not just change vehicle density with a single button press instead of taking all the way into the menu. I mean it's okay to change your framerate with a single button press instead of going to the menu too. So changing vd with a single button should be allowed because it's possible on pc.
But wait. Why stop at changing textfiles on your pc? How about some memory reading. No more opening the phone to get the current ingame time and delaying calls. No more checking for the time of the gay date or the interview. Always know if the security guard with the pistol spawned. Always know what the next call will be and determine based on that if it's worth waiting before a mission. Of course you're not making decisions based on your own knowledge. You're just doing what a tool says to you, but it should be allowed because it's possible on pc.
But wait. Why stop at reading memory, when it can be altered? Need a taxi? Spawn taxis onto the road. Need a fast car? Spawn a comet. Too many traffic on the road? Clean these streets man. Red light during street sweeper? It's green now. But not just on a button press. Everything fully automatic exactly when you need it because it's possible on pc.
And while we are at it. Let's mod the game and make everything but the first and final mission optional for the game progress. Nico is invincible and starts with unlimited ammo for every weapon because it's possible on pc.
okay enough
I am always in favor of tools that make run(ner)s more comparable to each other to reduce variance and have it come down to skill as much as possible. For example a load time remover would be such thing. But allowing everything because it's possible is going in the exact opposite direction and making runs less and less comparable.
While I don't mind people setting up their PC before gaming in a way they are most comfortable with. If the reasoning is because it's possible on pc my answer is B.
That is only the case for ingame vsync. Driver vsync or external framelimiter don't increase loading times.
I thought about the having the framerate shown in submitted video thing. But this time from the runner perspective and as a not LB mod.
If you set your game to unlimited FPS: In a normal world the framerate goes up when nothing happens, like standing around and waiting for a call. And it dips when a lot of action is happening, like shootouts or police chases. Pretty much the opposite of what you want to have according to the timings.
Kyle. You say it's very easy to determine if a person is toggling a framelimit mid run. I would dissagree on that. If you play yourself framerate changes are way more noticeable compared to a viewer. You don't get the input response as a viewer, since you are not doing any inputs.
Especially if the video isn't 60 fps. With a 60 fps video frame doubling occurse when the game fps drops below 60. That's what you can notice relatively easy. But not everyone can stream at 60 like you do. What if somebody comes along and has only 20 FPS videos. It's very hard to see if something is happening to the Framerate when you only stand around and wait for a call instead of moving. Because Frames are only getting duped yesDuping below 20 ingame FPS.
Deciding whether framerate was toggled or not would be often a guess. And proper run verification shouldn't be based on guessing but on knowning. With visible FPS in the video there would be way less doubt if something has been done by a runner.
So are we adding the rule that future runs need visible Frameratedisplay in the Video like other PC Games (like edler scrolls games or fallout games) already have to properly enforce these rules?
Since without it, verifying runs will be close to impossible.
Since that discussion started in Ilias chat a quick voting on that topic.
Should it be allowed to use a 3rd party tool (such as bandicam or dxtory) to toggle an fps limiter mid run.
A. 3rd party tools are TAS and should be not allowed
B. Allow framelimiting for the helicopter part in the last mission so people with too fast hardware are able to beat the game
C. Allow it everywhere. Even if everything else is beat able with current day hardware.
