Virginia, USAMany of you seem to be contradicting yourselves. The following two cannot happen at the same time:
- No timer on screen.
- Validate timing by checking VOD timestamps at beginning and end, spot check a few places.
If you allow runs without a timer, then the moderator HAS to sit and watch the entire run, start to finish, paying close attention the entire time. Otherwise, the run may have had skips in it somewhere, skewing the time based on timestamps. Spot-checking it might catch a skip, but it might not. Sonic has displayed several times that this is an issue caused by streaming directly from PS4.
So either we allow runs with no timer, meaning we have to sit through 10+ runs of length ranging from 45min to 11hr each day, or we have to require the timer. If one of you wants to watch the entirety of every single PB every day, be my guest.
All of the above is even still if we assumed the timer rule was simply to make mods lives easier which I've stated previously that it is not; it is simply a benefit. Without a timer we would have to reject any run that is missing any amount of time. It's not a big deal to need to reset a 34 minute run because your internet died, but it really is for multi-hour runs.
To the point of aesthetics: we don't require Livesplit specifically, or full splits, or anything like that. A simple small timer in the corner of the screen is incredibly non-intrusive to fullscreen gameplay. In fact, the only restriction around timers that we have is that it not be the PS4's built-in "elapsed time" feature, simply because it has been repeatedly proven to be inaccurate and inconsistent.
We seem to be going in circles here now. You have made your arguments and they are taken under advisement. Currently, there does not seem to be enough support to change the current requirements, but things are of course always open to change based on what the community vocalizes.
One last note: the first sub 3 in KH2FM wouldn't be allowed under your ruleset, which I'm sure would be disagreed with by a large number of people.
Dax, BB, and Ninten were all added with the intention of same rights. If they can't verify runs, this is news to me and something any of the other mods would happily fix for them. None have brought it up as an issue to the other mods though, which leads me to believe it works fine for them.
To your "computers have gotten more powerful" argument: I recently built a new computer because my previous computer (that I built for $1000 in 2013) couldn't support streaming and locally recording at the same time. I built a new one because I have the means to do so; not everyone is so lucky.
Requiring videos at all was something we did with a lot of caution to ensure it wouldn't exclude runners. We are not willing to exclude people simply because their ISP drops their connection at random sometimes (as an example, I have 50mbps down/up and even my connection drops pretty frequently in the evenings). Not all parts of the world have increased their services at the same rate. Internet service packages in my town have not changed in the last 5 years, for example, which is far longer than the KH leaderboards have lived on SRDC.
Lastly, just because another game does things one way doesn't mean we have to. Feel free to run those games if you disagree with the simple necessity of a timer on screen. Feel free to run this one if you add a timer. Different rules work for different communities. We're not going to allow turbo button, for example, just because some games do.
As Sonic mentioned in the other thread, we generally ask runners to run a timer during their run (which everyone does anyways so they can compare to their splits) so that when they restream or edit a timer in post they can make sure the times match up.
The timer rule is not only to make our lives easier, that is just a benefit of it. It is to help detect and deter cheating as well. It also allows us to accept videos that were split into multiple parts due to numerous reasons including (but not limited to):
- Internet hiccups
- Complete internet failures (crash)
- Twitch VOD archiving issues
- Getting quality options mid-run which splits Twitch VODs (this may no longer happen with recent changes, I'm not certain, but used to be VERY frequent)
- Computer freezes/crashes
Without an on-screen timer, we have zero way of retiming any of these videos. We've had this rule in effect ever since the Google Docs days because we have numerous community members who suffer from poor internet connections and would still like to be able to be inclusive towards them. We can't simply say "well why don't you just local record" either, because some runners' computers aren't powerful enough to stream and local record.
Since there are a few misconceptions... again... Things mods do, despite the existence of a timer on screen:
- Check that every run is accurately timed
- Fix timing of runs that are not accurately timed, but still complete the run correctly (e.g. split early/late)
- Take on new mods (2017 has already seen 3 new mods)
- Time runs that we're uncertain of (that's right, we still do completely retime entire runs sometimes)
- Spot check every run for issues (i.e. check for cheating, rule-breaking, etc.)
- Fix old runs when informed of mistakes
- Work with runners who don't know how to time their run to help them set it up
- A million other things
We probably receive about 10 run submissions a day on average, each of which can be anywhere from 25 minutes to 11 hours long. Most mods who don't verify runs often are that way because they have full-time jobs and still try to stream and have fun speedrunning as well. Hell, sometimes it's just because a few mods are quick on the draw and catch a lot of the runs, because they're awesome people. Every mod helps out by participating in discussions, fixing the boards, or one of the other various tasks we do pretty frequently.
TL/DR: The fact that it makes mods lives a little easier is simply a bonus, not the be-all-end-all deciding factor.
I think there's a misunderstanding about the two runners "rule." Let me try to make it clearer: For any category that is not clearly well-defined by the game (e.g. Any% - clearly defined vs. Destiny Islands Battles RTA - not clearly defined) we require express interest from the community before adding it. We judge each new category independently and make the call to add them on a case-by-case basis. This is why, for example, Cheat% is not on the leaderboards despite its (albeit, short-lived) popularity; it just doesn't make much sense to allow a hacked version on the leaderboards. We use the "two runners must want it" policy as a general guideline when adding categories. There are some categories it makes more sense to apply it more strictly to than others, BC PS3 being one such example. There are no real gameplay/route differences between PS2 and BC PS3, so there is not much point in adding it if there is no competition.
Now, to talk about specifics. As Neraigo and Timmi mentioned, almost every single category listed by Sly exists due to its existence on another version of the game, or because it is a well-defined category in the game (e.g. JJ 100%). Timmi is partially right on the variable stuff too; it is significantly more difficult to hide some of the categories for different versions due to how SRDC variables work. Additionally, we cannot hide them at all if we want to still allow people to submit to them, even if there aren't any runs yet.
We feel this loose policy on requiring express interest from the community is necessary because our leaderboards are already very cluttered with categories as it is, which makes it very hard to digest for new visitors to the site. We also feel that it's a pretty lax policy seeing as we only really ask that you find at least one other person to run your category. Otherwise, what is the purpose of a leaderboard for it? You can obviously keep track of your own time locally, as many do.
Lastly, some categories that only have one run remain that way due to being grandfathered into this general guideline.
Actually a bunch of people just did this for 1.5+2.5 recently and a few more (including myself) are planning to do it soon. I don't think anyone's done it with 2.8 too yet though. Format is basically whatever you want. Most people generally do it in either release order or story order. Personally I prefer the latter because it means I get to end on 2FM, but whatever order is best for you is fine! Good luck on your endeavor, be sure to plan out food breaks!
[section=Preface] This thread is the result of a lengthy discussion in the Ori speedrun discord. The goal of this first post is to attempt to compile all of the points that have been made in favor of and against mouse wheel binding in an unbiased manner and provide a poll. Thus, this first post should not be seen as a post from myself, but as a compilation of different community voices. Any following posts made by me will be the expression of my personal opinion.
[section=Background] The Definitive Edition of Ori included the ability to rebind keys via the KeyRebindings.txt file. This file enables the user to bind keys to various mouse and keyboard buttons, as well as bind multiple actions to one key and multiple keys to one action. The mouse wheel, however, is not able to be bound through this file alone. Some time ago, it was decided by the community that binding the mouse wheel via 3rd party software (Xmouse, Logitech Gaming Software, etc.) would be allowed. It is unclear all of the factors that led to this decision, but it is remembered by most to be related to the double-bash-heavy route at the time and the natural ease mouse wheel lends to the trick. It was also noted that the concept of "it's impossible to verify," was brought up as a significant factor in the original decision.
[section=New Proposal] Mouse wheel should not be permitted. Existing runs on the leaderboard that used mouse wheel would be "grandfathered" in rather than be removed.
[section=Reasons For] [big]¤[/big] The primary reason for the proposal is that it is not allowed by the game. Mouse wheel is not bindable via the KeyRebindings.txt file, and using external software to make it possible should not be allowed. It is a slippery slope to allow external software.
[big]¤[/big] The mouse wheel has been likened to the "turbo" function of some controllers where, once activated, one could simply press one button to perform multiple actions. While each tick of the scroll wheel does indeed correspond to a single input, some argued that it is still one action being performed by the player (scrolling the wheel) to result in multiple, sequential inputs.
[big]¤[/big] The original concept of "it's not verifiable" should not have ever been considered a factor. There are many forms of cheating that are not easily verifiable (or verifiable at all), and it is not a good reason to allow something questionable. "Just because you can't prove cheating doesn't mean you shouldn't ban it."
[big]¤[/big] Mouse wheel was only allowed to make TAS-level strats easier, not to level the playing field between input devices or anything similar. Removing the mouse wheel might make a few things slower, but it would conform to the game's bindings and not make any large tricks suddenly "impossible" (simply more difficult).
[big]¤[/big] Controller rebinds via external software were allowed in order to give controllers the same rebinding ability of keyboard and mouse. Rebinds were also allowed to assist runners who could not use a keyboard & mouse setup due to physical conditions (such as a Repetitive Stress Injury). They have no place in this discussion and should not be seen as a valid parallel.
[section=Reasons Against] [big]¤[/big] The mouse wheel is a standard function of the mouse and should be bindable just like any other button. Using 3rd party software to do so is just fixing a problem that should've never existed from the game in the first place.
[big]¤[/big] Allowing the mouse wheel only pushes the best time lower and lower. Anything that can be done physically should be allowed if it makes the run faster. The external software is only being used to allow a bind, not perform any additional actions automatically (e.g. a macro).
[big]¤[/big] Several runners have been using mouse wheel for a long time now and have become accustomed to it. Removing it would force these runners to rewrite a lot of muscle memory and might cause them to instead abandon the game.
[big]¤[/big] Controller rebinds are also not permitted by the game. There is a ControllerRebindings.txt file, but it unfortunately does nothing (it is unclear if this was intended or a problem with the game). So far they have been permitted via external software. If one is against allowing the mouse wheel, shouldn't they also be against controller rebinds? There is a clear parallel here.
[section=Current Steps] Please vote in a general poll here: http://www.strawpoll.me/12714241 . This is not a final decision, but just a poll to get some rough numbers. Please feel free to continue adding your points as responses to this thread.
To note, I'd suggest moving this discussion over to the KH2 Final Mix HD forum as you're much more likely to get quicker responses there (speedrun.com doesn't send notifications for the series-wide forums, but does for game-specific ones). You can open a new thread and post a link to this one.
With that being said, as neraigo mentioned, most of the fights in KH2FM have very specific strats. I believe most enemies have gone unchanged in their AI with the PS4 version. It's gonna be hard to tell exactly what's going wrong for you without being able to see it, so I'd recommend recording some videos of the fights that are giving you trouble (most notably Demyx) and posting them in Discord or in the KH2FMHD forum. You can record videos either via a capture device + OBS/Xsplit or directly from the PS4 with the Share button.
I do know that clearing out all of the water clones before using the Trinity finisher can potentially mess things up though, so be sure to start your Trinity earlier or miss more clones with Major Drive. IIRC, you want 1-5 clones alive when you start your finisher.
Remember when you reply to please do so on the KH2FMHD forum.
You actually can't use triangle in the menu, only X (or O in Japanese). Triangle only works for text boxes.
No restart, any order, last hit.
Just because one campaign may end up being best saved for last by a few seconds doesn't mean you're "locking" people into making it last. They could simply lose the few seconds if they strongly care about a different character order (for some reason).
I'd wager a guess with 99% certainty that it's banned.
Sorry, I phrased that original post poorly. Wasn't meaning to sound accusatory, merely curious on background. Thanks for the response!
I believe this game is still perfectly playable on the PAL version. I could be mistaken, but I think the NTSC differences are not major.
I believe only legitimate disc copies are allowed. UYA is pretty cheap tho, I'd just pick up a copy.
The health token is not required for the 100 Token level leaderboards. All of the health tokens are required if you're doing the full 100% run.
Well the game forces you to get the gravity boots. You can just get the bolts you're supposed to need them for early. That would still fit under the realm of "glitches within planets but not planet-skipping glitches." The other thing is what's the criteria for that? Because in Any%, we step on every planet except Tyhrranosis and Aridia. The Tyhrranosis skip is an obvious one that would be banned, but what about how we skip Aridia? We only skip it by navigating uniquely backwards through Qwark's Hideout. Would that count as a planet-skipping glitch? If not, do we just have to fly to Aridia and leave then in order to "take one step"?
