June 1st: The traffic density rule was not removed. More people were in favor of not removing it. Ignore the title of this thread. (This decision was made over a month ago.)

Etholon decided on Vehicle Density at 33% to bring PC GTA4 in line with console settings. But are other reasons to leave it at 33%: it makes the game more difficult, (even if only slightly,) and therefore more interesting to play/run; also, it means less mucking about in the menus, two of the reasons classic% exists. If anything, there should be more rules, (no warps of any kind: not train, phone, or mission restarts, etc.,) to futher distinguish it from any%. The any% category should be the anything-goes category and classic% should continue to be left for those who like some nostalgia with their speedruns.

In no way is this set in stone (though, I can't imagine 5 years from now this rule will be reinstated). In my mind, taking action and actually making a change gets people thinking and discussing better/quicker than if no change was suddenly made (hopefully for V as well). The point about keeping it in line with consoles should be dropped because features in the "Classic GTAs" differ between console and PC versions and the speedruns of these games differ as well. If anything, this keeps IV up to speed with the way things are handled with these games. As for wanting there to be "more rules", hey, if there had been a rule which stated "mission fail warping is not allowed (using the phone)", I'd be following it today just like I follow the "no taxi warping" rule. The thing is, no one ever made this a rule and in all honesty, it wouldn't add much. You use this for, I think, two missions. Another thing to consider is the "benefit of the doubt" factor. Deathwarps have to be allowed because when you die, you deathwarp, and trying to prove that someone intentionally died would quickly become a messy situation. On the issue of retrying missions through the phone, which is almost always results in a warp, it'd also become messy trying to enforce this. Do you know how many times I've accidentally retired a mission with the phone when I didn't want to? I'm not sure if this has happened to me in a run, but it definitely has during practice and casual play. The problem is they have the retry option directly after opening the phone and an accidental "double click" has happened to me many times. On top of creating a messy situation with the enforcement of these rules, they'd also create a sense of worry in runner's minds as they hope they don't accidentally do something which breaks the rules, (mainly thinking about mission retries here) sort of like accidental cheats in SA. You really can't "accidentally take a taxi" or "accidentally load an autosave" or "accidentally select the video editor and actually start it up". None of these things have EVER happened to me, but accidentally retrying a mission and accidentally dying have. Lastly, I can't ever see myself going back into the menu to change the density from 1 to anything else. You're going to end up losing more time than you'd ever save bothering with the menus during the run.

Let's table the warp discussion for another thread.

You've already said that there's no time benefit to be had by lowering vehicle density but haven't answered my assertion that it makes the game more difficult and therefore more fun and interesting. So, at the cost of a fun rule, what have you gained?

Classic% has very little legitimacy among the wider speedrunning community, (already dismissive of gta4,) who assert any% as the one true category. Discarding, two years on, one-third of the rules of classic% is sure to decrease that legitimacy to zero.

If one were to, for example, reduce the amount of collected stars required to complete a Super Mario 64 70-star run, haven't you, by altering the category's rules, created a new category? I believe that by reducing the requirements to complete a classic% run, you've created a new category. All that's left is to think of a new name for the new category. May I suggest "any%"?

Lowering TD leads to a decrease in RNG dictated scenarios, plain and simple. You're going to have less of the "damn that car ended up directly in my path, there was no where for me to go" moments. Do you find these moments interesting and/or fun? I certainly don't and I would guess most speedrunners would agree with me. Most games have their own equivalent of this type of moment. I have never once found any sort of redeeming factor in approaching the wall during the mission "Ryder" in SA and T-boning a car which was impossible for me to known was there. More people know what I'm talking about with this example than any example I could describe in IV, so this is what I've used to get my point across. So, yes, I feel this will make the run more interesting and more fun.

Whether or not your statement on "legitimacy" is true, I'm the guy who couldn't care less what anyone thinks of this category and/or GTA IV in general. What I do care about is making the category better for those who do enjoy running and/or watching right now, and in the future.

On average, a good driver in IV will likely experience little to no benefits from this change. There are moments where you need a car to spawn nearby, maybe to push the helicopter, and who knows if having TD set to 1 will more times than not, negatively affect a runner. It would only make sense that it would, so maybe it will come to be known that you probably should increase TD before a specific moment. Maybe it will take a bit longer to reach a car when you've kept TD at 1 before a moment like this. One thing is for sure, having the option to change the density whenever one wants to can only lead to more "strats", which equals a more interesting run, in my mind. At the present moment, I'm guessing there will be a balance between time saved and time lost, no matter what you have your density set to throughout the run. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that I feel allowing the player to change the density will lead to actual strategies filling the areas which were once dictated by RNG.

Another opinion of mine is that Any% is more RNG heavy when compared to Classic%, which is one of the reasons as to why I have stuck to Classic%. You are never guaranteed a "good" taxi spawn when you need it, this is why. There are less moments of "please RNG, help me out" in Classic% as compared to Any%, so in my opinion, it is an overall better speedrun.

Plus, traffic density differs between last gen and current gen for GTA V. Surely there will be a TD option on PC, so what are they to do with the rule? Let's say last gen is set to 33 and current gen is set to 50. Does this mean the rule for Classic% V on PC should state "Traffic Density must be set to either 33 or 50 at any given time during the run"? Seems outrageous, and from what I've gathered from those involved with V speedrunning, there won't be a TD rule for PC. Therefore, shouldn't we try to keep the category as identical as possible between games where people see a need for "Classic%"?

I´m no runner of this game, but you just don´t go ahead and decide for yourself to change the rules.

Make a poll and see if other runners really want it so badly, because no one was making a fuss about this rule so far.

I care what the speedrunning community thinks about gta4's legitimacy because that's how and why communities exist. A speedrunner without a speedrunning community is just a Let's Player with an on-screen clock.

I've never played SA or V, but traffic in gta4 isn't RNG, it's an algorithm that triggers under specific conditions, but might or might not occur when those conditions are met. For example, peds test your driving skill by, for example, placing their bumper slightly in your path, or by stepping off the curb at an inopportune moment. Avoid these small tests successfully and you are rewarded with emptier roads, less aggressive AI for a time, and smoother drives. Fail to avoid a few in a row and you will be punished with, for example, an unavoidable t-bone crash. This is fun because accurate and observant driving is rewarded and aggressive or bad driving is punished. Reduce TD to 1 and you've removed this mechanic almost entirely, resulting in an easier and, in my opinion, more boring game. (Rockstar, in their infinite wisdom, put the setting for this gameplay mechanic under "Graphics", but that's another discussion.)

While I agree with Molotok's opinion that changing well-established rules by fiat is... less than ideal, I must disagree with the suggestion for a poll. Many people who have never publicly run the game or, indeed, even played it for more than 10 minutes, happily offer whatever opinion about it that springs to mind to anyone who will listen. A consensus in this thread would be the best way to determine what should be done, I think.

Your argument, as I read it, is that classic% is too restrictive and you can get a lower time if the restrictions are removed and more strategies are allowed. To which I reply: wonderful! simply remove all the restrictions, call it any%, and get the lowest time you possibly can with my full blessing. But if you want to take the name classic% and apply it to a rule set that is not classic%, then I must object. The name is not yours, the rule set is not yours. Etholon created it, I spent a year of my life popularizing it, (as did you, and to great effect, for which you are to be commended,) but it belongs to the community.

When you run Any%, you are actually restricting yourself more than if you ran Classic%. No runner of Any% will ever not take a cab when possible after they become available. It's like stairs vs. escalator issue, use your bodily ability or not. You are restricted from driving and flying many in-game miles, even though you could, because you know that you must take a cab to stand a chance in the category. You lose many minutes of the showcasing of a player's skill behind the wheel or in the cockpit. There are people who hate driving, no matter what the game may be. One of the most common gripes regarding SA Any% are the long drives. So, what is truly the more restrictive category? The one where you turn the game into what might as well be the equivalent of a mission select screen after 20 minutes of gameplay or the one which begged you to use your freedom to come up with a route and strategies and actually allow you to express your ideas? Are we women in Saudi Arabia or women in the United States?

Your comments on what is and what isn't RNG in IV seem to simply be an opinion of yours which you may or may not believe, but I assume you do. I guess you've come to believe that is how the game works, but I for one have not. After what is likely close to 3000 hours of gameplay, which includes my time with this game before I began speedrunning it, I have never once even came close to a conclusion like you have regarding how traffic/pedestrians work within the code. After near 3000 hours, what is my conclusion? It's RNG, nothing more, nothing less. I don't believe for even a second that there is code being executed which is basically doing the following: Checking to see if a player avoided cars at an intersection and then prepares to spawn less cars at the next few intersections the player reaches and/or begin to spawn less traffic on the streets. Ask Feurigerilias, an Any% runner, how he feels about playing with TD set to 1. He did Classic% for long enough to be able to see the difference it makes and I've watched his Any% runs, so I'm also able to pick up on any differences. The conclusion, at least from me? Most of the time, you wonder if setting TD to 1 has even made a major difference. Traffic still gets in the way, still turns in front of you, still sits at intersections leaving you no choice but to crash through polls on the sidewalk in order to reach a marker before a dialogue line. Mind you, this is mostly seen before taxi travel is unlocked.

Lastly, I never claimed someone will be able to get a faster time because of this change. What I'm claiming is this category will now be dictated less by RNG and more by the player. As I already said, allowing the player to change the density will lead to actual strategies filling the areas which were once dictated by RNG. How could you possibly feel this change will make the category even more illegitimate? I can't imagine anyone feeling a speedrun with more RNG is more legitimate than a speedrun with less.

As you have already stated, a point which has been known to me since even before I began to run the game, the TD rule was put into effect SOLELY because on consoles, TD is set in stone at 33. At that time and still to this day, that decision in no way reflected how rules are handled with most, if not all other games begin speedran. I have absolutely no knowledge of a rule existing for any other run which was put into affect in order to keep it "fair" between different consoles. Good intentions, but a bad rule.

The following comments are simply observations of mine and may or may not mean anything in the long-run: Mhmd_FVC, someone I've heard in the past make statements regarding Classic% which would make it clear he finds the category pretty "illegitimate", "liked" the OP in this thread. Feurigerilias, a runner of both Classic% and Any%, probably supports this change based on comments I've heard him make, though I've yet to ask him directly. Lanayru, one of the few who has actually spent some time with Classic, and I believe Any%, made this comment regarding this change, "nice, apart from me getting mad having to drive one end to other this will make races better". Jolzi, who you know has spent enough time with this game to have a valuable opinion, knew about this change thanks to Twitter and made one comment which was a reply to Lanayru's comment of, "inb4 that someone says changing density is cheating", and it read, "¤menuing is cheating". I would assume he either doesn't care or he agrees. Ryedawg also supports the removal of this rule from what he's shown on Twitter. Lastly, GTA V Classic% runners and what appears to be an already solid decision to not have a TD rule for the PC version. That's all, and as I said, these are just observations.

Molotok, who should I consult when making a decision for a speedrun which is virtual ran by no one but myself anymore? I respect Dispersor's opinion. One of his main concerns is preserving whatever "legitimacy" Classic% already has. He also clearly would like to increase the legitimacy of Classic% and in my opinion, this change can only do this exact thing. I really would like to know who out there feels Classic% is an illegitimate category. Please, I request whoever you are to speak up in this thread. Is it because no one runs it, even though more people have ran Classic% than Any%? Is it because of the phonecall RNG? Well, both Classic% and Any% have phonecall RNG. If someone out there feels it's illegitimate because of what they feel is lots of RNG, how can decreasing RNG (by removing this TD rule) make the category MORE illegitimate? Please, for the love of god, someone, answer this question! Is Portal's "Any% (no OOB)" category illegitimate? It is ran by nearly 3x more people than "Any%". Regardless, is it illegitimate because its rules will always make it a purposely slower category than good old Any%? What defines "legitimacy" in the world of speedrunning? Can Any% be the only legitimate category, no matter what the game? Is VC All Missions completely illegitimate because it's always going to be slower than VC Any%? What if a game's Any% is filled with RNG? Can it never be considered legitimate?

...........

I hope you're catching on by now that I feel this talk of "legitimacy" is absolutely ridiculous and I couldn't care less if anyone actually answers any of these questions I've proposed, but you can still answer any or all of them and I promise you I'll give your response some thought.

Lastly, take a look at the SA "frame limiter should be required" thread: http://www.speedrun.com/gtasa/thread/2kd5h Most of the responses were from people who actually ran the game. It'd be nice if this thread could get some responses from other names on the IV leaderboards. Even if you're not on the leaderboard, your thoughts are welcomed too. I sent a "tweet" out earlier today as an attempt to bring some more discussion to this thread, but have yet to see any results.

So there are 2 reasons to enforce rules in speedruns.

1. To make a run more entertaining.

That is basically the idea of classic%. Remove the more boring stuff like warps all over the that can be consistently repeated. But i also see why menuing makes a run less entertaining.

GTA is mostly about driving. If you allow to change traffic density mid run, your driving skill over the full run becomes less relevant, but your menuing skill is more important.

You say that the speed difference is marginal to non existent. That might be true. Still with this rule change future classic runs would be on 1% for the most part of the run. Because warps are not allowed and you drive for the most part.

An again driving on empty streets is less entertaining than driving on somewhat full streets.

I know you will say a speedrun doesn't need to be entertaining for the viewers and that it's about the fastest times, but the classic rule set was made with entertainment in mind for the exchange of speed.

(1.5 i would flip less on traffic 1%. Less jolzi flips = worse Kappa )

2. Make runs and runners more comparable to each other.

Speedrunning is sortoff a competition with the leaderboards. If you can't compare runs properly then what's the point of leaderboards?

If traffic is set to 1. You can't really say person x is better at driving, because he doesn't hit cars that didn't spawn. The most time spend in a GTA run is driving after all. But on the other hand menuing skill becomes a thing.

And since you mentioned SA. It's also about Hardware dependencies. While the frame rate fucks up old GTA way more than in GTA4, it's still important in a run. If you have a consistent FPS the inputlag is lower and tricks are more consistent. Some missions depend on your framerate. Loading times are also affected by FPS.

The traffic density doesn't affect the FPS too much, but you can notice it in crowded places like south Algonquin or center Alderney.

Not only that. For me it feels like pausing the game often also causes worse FPS. Another thing that would come from menuing.

Having a set rule for this would reduce those limitations and make the runs on the leaderboards more comparable.

I'd say 33% traffic density should stay part of the classic rules. With my 2 arguments + the fact that you yourself say that it wouldn't make the run faster if it was removed.

I would be ok with a different value than 33% aslong as everyone is using that and it can't be changed mid run. But 33% is very consistent in terms of everything, that i don't see a better permanent density setting.

Also the traffic density discussion started because of GTA5. I'd say classic rules for the PC version of GTA5 shouldn't be set before the game is even out...

You've already said that there's no time benefit to be had by lowering vehicle density but haven't answered my assertion that it makes the game more difficult and therefore more fun and interesting.

Well, one's opinion is not the one of somebody else. Having a higher vehicle density is not really fun because most of the time it's irrelevant. In this game it is not difficult to maneuver through the traffic and find a path. But when your route (most infamous drive would be the Janitor in it's your call) is blocked you will not get consistency. It's just bullshit and nothing more. That makes having comparable times more difficult.

It's RNG that you simply don't need and noone should need. Also I feel like that it also is for some parts irrelevant because you have a helicopter making some drives with a car compared to helicopter less competetive, just because you have that bit of rng that even the best driver sometimes can't avoid to lose time upon.

Reduce TD to 1 and you've removed this mechanic almost entirely, resulting in an easier and, in my opinion, more boring game.

I play in any% currently on 1. It is not gone. It still exists and it still is very annoying when you have to slow down because traffic blocks the optimal route. It's just less, but still there. Driving in this game is difficult enough, you don't need more traffic than there has to be. Which brings me to the next point:

It's supposed to be classic because 3D Gta had to route inbetween missions and that is the part that gets interesting because using a taxi removes that routing. Vice City had failed mission skips by giving you a cabbie if you died and you can get to the mission marker. But even bigger and more importan, every single 3D Gta has a way of despawning traffic. GTA3 has camera switching and top down, VC has the camera backwards facing and San Andreas uses also the camera to despawn. All these games remove traffic. Why should the same not be allowed if it is possible to set down the traffic density?

People don't think any% is the golden ball for GTA 4. Those few people (including me) do classic% for the challenge, but I also started doing any% to get a run that actually goes to the limit of the game, which I still find fun to do. It's just different. It is a different category and not worse or better.

Now the traffic density set to 33% argument because of consoles dies for the same reason. Console is a different category, that is not comparable to PC and it never will be. And it's not like there are console runs to compare to the PC version in the first place.

Classic% is routing inbetween missions and not using auto save warping (even though in any% it's rarely used). This is already a challenge and is enough fun. I can only have so much fun dodging traffic all the time (i might as well just casually play it then). Like I said I know for sure, that vehicle density 1 doesnt mean no traffic rng. You still need to be able to get around traffic.

Currently only Kyle and me are left that put something into this game and like I said I want to see this game have a bigger community and having rules that don't make sense for the biggest part aren't helping.

Traffic density is a thing and it doesn't break the game or destroys the legacy of 3D GTA's. Those also have their own ways of breaking traffic.

There honestly will never be a moment in the Classic% run where you absolutely need to up the density from 1. The only time I could possibly think of where it ¤may¤ help is just after finishing "Call and Collect". It is possible to get the helicopter out without pushing it, though it will take some damage. I've seen Feurigerilias do this before. I for one almost always took the safe route, but it's not very difficult to learn. Other than this, there's never a moment during the run where you would need to change the density, unless there does exist that ONE time that I can't think of atm.

Come on people, RNG has never been fun or interesting in IV's Classic% run. The only reason it exists is because Etholon, the guy who created Classic% but for some reason has no time on the leaderboard even though he has a Classic% PB, thought it'd be a good idea to keep the console and PC versions as equal as possible (even though we now use Clip Capture on PC to save around 20 seconds, something console runners can't do). It doesn't reflect how any other offshoot speedrunning category is handled. It doesn't reflect the original point of Classic% (which I never subscribed to) which Feurigerilias alluded to with the following in his above post:

QUOTE: But even bigger and more importan, every single 3D Gta has a way of despawning traffic. GTA3 has camera switching and top down, VC has the camera backwards facing and San Andreas uses also the camera to despawn. All these games remove traffic. Why should the same not be allowed if it is possible to set down the traffic density? - Feurigerilias

Exactly, did Etholon not realized the importance of traffic manipulation in the previous GTA titles? If he did, and truly wanted to make Classic% a category which only allowed the use of features which were available in previous titles, wouldn't he have allowed the player to change TD throughout the run? It is after all, IV's version of traffic manipulation. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if Classic% was ever intended to be about "nostalgia" or "keeping it like previous GTAs". People have already pointed out 100's of times how not allowing taxis doesn't exactly mimic the certain 3D era GTA titles. So, the only thing left is the autosave feature and the video editor warp. That's all I really have to say. I would never want to remove the taxi or autosave/video editor rules. They reflect what I have always felt the point of Classic% is and if you still don't know what that is, see the thread about GTA V's required ending, located on the main GTA Forum page.

(From Jolzi's post) If traffic is set to 1. You can't really say person x is better at driving, because he doesn't hit cars that didn't spawn. The most time spend in a GTA run is driving after all. But on the other hand menuing skill becomes a thing.

^ How would person X not be considered better at driving when compared to person Y if both players did a time trial around the same, empty track? I don't know if you're trying to compare past times with future times under this rule change, or something else entirely.

(From Jolzi's post) I know you will say a speedrun doesn't need to be entertaining for the viewers and that it's about the fastest times, but the classic rule set was made with entertainment in mind for the exchange of speed.

^ Yeah, the category was made for people to run it, people who found it more entertaining than any%. It wasn't created to give viewers a chance to see a runner get screwed by unavoidable RNG. All of the rules lead to more entertainment for the runner, except for the TD rule. Whom from the past and whom from the present would have chose not to run Classic% if the TD rule never existed, but all others did? Absolutely no one. On the contrary, whom from the past and whom from the present would have chose not to run Classic% if the taxi rule AND the TD rule never existed. Likely every single person because who in the hell would not run Any%, if forced to pick one or the other, when the only restriction Classic% has is autosave/video editor? The answer is everyone. Admit it, Classic% is really about not using the taxi. No one really gives a damn about any of the other rules, well, unless you're here in this thread hoping to not lose the TD rule.

All of this talk about "traffic makes the run more entertaining" just makes me shake my head. Who on Earth finds enjoyment knowing that they might lose time during the run because of those instances of completely unavoidable RNG? Ilias has already made great points regarding traffic, so I won't repeat them. The way he feels is pretty much spot on to how I feel. We do Classic% because WE enjoy it and the only reason there's something for viewers to watch is because WE enjoy it. I'm not trying to provide entertainment for people who enjoy watching something I DON'T enjoy playing. (At TD 33, I give Classic% a 99%. At TD 1/varies, I'll give Classic% a 100%.)

Again, I'll state the number one reason why I feel this traffic density rule NEEDS to be removed. Allowing the player to change the density will lead to actual strategies filling the areas which were once dictated by RNG, even if it becomes the simplest strategy known to man.

Here's a point which has vaguely been brought up. Why should the opinions of those who don't run the game anymore matter to the cause? I wouldn't expect my opinion to matter if I knew I was never going to seriously run the category again. I mean, I respect your opinions, but I don't feel they should necessarily have any effect on the outcome if you don't even run the game anymore. So I ask, Dispersor, do you have plans to seriously run the category again? You can always set your TD to 33 if you ever do run again, seriously or casually, if this change remains in effect. And, Jolzi, the same question for you. I bring this up because I've heard two highly active, GTA speedrunners question why the opinions of those who no longer run the game should be considered. What did the decision with San Andreas and the frame limiter come down to? If all of the active runners of SA had agreed on requiring use of the frame limiter while an equal number of inactive/or...let's say "retired" runners had agreed on not requiring it, would they have agreed the issue should sit stagnate or would the active runners have said, "We're actually running this game, I think it's up to us to decide." Would any SA people who took part in this decision like to shed some light here?

A poll is now up and running. This poll will decide what happens with this rule and then it will be end of story.

http://www.speedrun.com/gtaiv/thread/zhexa/1#yhlpa

@Kyle: If every guy who currently is the active runner of an established category would have the right to bend the rules as he pleases, the result would be a bunch of runs with uncomparable different rule sets unified under the same category. This is a mess and that´s why already established rules should stay unless there is a really good reason to change them.

[quote] "accidentally load an autosave" [/quote]

Game crash

Not sure anymore who made the comment, but by changing classic% rulesets you're essentially creating a new category. Classic% is supposed to be a classic run, and by changing the definition you're removing the 'classic' aspect of it (unless of course, you finally want to get rid of the shitty category name and call it something proper)

Right so I came up with an idea.

See this category. Mess with the dropdown boxes a bit. http://www.speedrun.com/gtaiv#Not_Any_Testcategory

The variables allow you to filter out any run that doesn't stick to 33% traffic density, if you so desire.

I'm not going to say anything about dumping both any% and classic% on the same leaderboards like this (you could), but it could be a nice alternative to having 'multiple' definitions of classic%.

The variables could also help if and when certain other categories, like 100%, all missions etc. take off the ground and having double categories would clutter stuff.

Right now Speedrun.com doesn't let me set variables for only one category, so the variables are also there for any% and classic% on the leaderboards, just ignore those for now when submitting until further response. Talked to Dispersor on IRC and he liked this idea, but I'm not going over gta4 so sort this out yoruself!

Thanks, S for the suggestion.

As S said, I like the variables idea. The benefit is that you get to pick what rules you like to run with. Then, when comparing times, you filter the leaderboard for those rules and your time is only compared to others who have run with those exact rules. That seems like a problem solved to me.

With regards to the variables themselves, there are several different tricks that could be considered warps: taxis, of course, but also autosaves, video editor, death, and probably a bunch more that I can't think of or haven't been invented yet. Should we have different variables that separately cover some or all of these, or maybe just "taxi warps" and "other warps"? Just "warps" seems a little broad as almost nobody likes taxi warps, but the rest seem like more of a personal choice.

Finally, to speak to S' question about the category name. I'd be fine if we jettisoned the "classic%" name, moved everything to "any%", and let the variables organize exactly which sort of "any%" the records are for. I think it would go a long way toward increasing gta4's legitmacy.