I dont want to name names publicly, but I dont know yet how to send a private message. Anyways, I have some questions about a certain record run.
Is there a mod or verifier that I can contact privately about this matter?
PMs aren't a thing on this site yet. You'll have to post a message on the game's forum, or contact the mods of the game's leaderboard (twitter, youtube, etc).
He's referring to me in a recent Roger Rabbit WR run i did. if you know this game, you know how incredibly random it is. i used 1 save state at the beginning of the game with an original cart on the Retron 5 to keep the randomness to a low, and allow me to actually speedrun the game. i dont see a problem with this and if others want to do the same with this game go ahead! if you can find a better item setting and get a better time please do! i want more runners on this game as it's a great game when you know what to do
its roger rabbit on the nes, it's not metroid, castlevania or a mario game. im the only person even attempting to run this game! lol. technically the savestate is before the run begins. there are no savestates during the run, no tas during the run, i play the game as any would.
does the Save state effect the RNG? as in allowing you to know exactly where stuff would be if you have to find something ahead of time? EX. item can be in found at 1, 2 or 3, if you can use the save state to know where it is ahead of time and do that for everything, i can see that to throw out the run then as that can be seen as unfair advantage.
In general using a save state to manipulate RNG is frowned upon and not really allowed since it does provide an unfair advantage and basically limits runs to only being done on emulator or with a flash cart.
If RNG can be manipulated without a save state that's fine, but loading a save state at the start of every run is just kinda lame.
There are games with no RNG and games with alot of RNG. The idea of speedrunning is to sit down and beat a game fast; simply pick games you want to run and not games you would run if save states would be allowed...
"technically the savestate is before the run begins."
Irrelevant. Saves state seed the RNG for that run, so if you have a good save, you'll always have the same RNG. This is cheating.
I mod GTA CW LB and noticed this happened if you used save states for that game, I banned it because it's unfair to runners on actual hardware who can't do save states. The thread shows a video of me getting a fast car every time I load the game.
Honestly, I feel like this is just a misunderstanding. You're not the only one who has been bitten by the community for doing this; it's actually quite a common thing for people who aren't used to the community. A very similar thing happened to me when I wrote a js helper script that used probability distribution functions to predict random item drops in a game I ran a while back
See the thread here: https://www.speedrun.com/Super_Solvers_Gizmos_and_Gadgets/thread/kluj5
More importantly, do you understand ¤why¤ using save states to affect RNG can bother people who either choose not to or don't know how to use them? I haven't played this game myself, but if randomness is one of the predominant factors to why people might run this game, it can take the fun out of it if someone comes through and nullifies the random number aspect.
To put it in simpler terms, imagine a foreigner who is visiting your country and sees someone playing soccer for the first time. He thinks it might be fun and asks to join in. He hasn't really played the game before, but he thinks it might be fun, and the team members welcome him. He watches the game for a bit, then comes up with a good strategy he thinks the others haven't thought of. When the ball comes to him, he reaches down and picks it up, then starts running down the field thinking he really outsmarted everyone. However, instead of applauding his ingenuity, his teammates scold him. This leaves the team members thinking the outsider is a troll, while the outsider now thinks that the team members are just a bunch of whining complainers, when the truth is that there is a ¤reason¤ that nobody has picked up the ball with their hands. What the foreigner doesn't realize is that this handicap is part of what makes the game fun for these players, and removing that aspect takes the fun out of the game.
These things aside, since you are the moderator for that game, why don't you create two separate tabs: one for using save states and one for not using them? I feel like that would be a fair compromise. I don't think anyone intended to demean you or say that you didn't put in the work to earn the run you made, but I also think that using a save state to affect RNG can make it unfair for those who like having to think on their feet.
"why don't you create two separate tabs: one for using save states and one for not using them?"
Noooooo, no, no no. Holy fuck hell do not do that. Just don't use savestates in your runs, jfc. Please end this bad meme of mod being given to people who have no idea what to do with it.
"and removing that aspect takes the fun out of the game. "
Less that and more that it's like, literally cheating? Its a modification unavailable to those on legitimate hardware, therefore it has no place on a speedrun leaderboard. Retron 5 is not legit hardware before that comes up, it's emulators in a box. If you're running on that, disclose it by marking runs with "Emu" and preferably stating that it's being ran on Retron 5, I don't even know Retron 5 is generally accepted for NES speedrunning?
either way savestate category is the single worst idea I have ever heard in my entire life please for the love of god consult with some other NES game moderators for guidance
Interesting. Okay, so this is an actual question because I really am curious to hear your perspective: Why is it okay to have tabs for runs that use glitches, but not one runs that use save states? I feel like not using save states is a personal preference, not a community-wide rule, and if it ¤is¤ a community-wide rule, there really needs to be a forum post about community-wide rules like these for newcomers to read before diving in and getting ousted simply because they didn't know how things work here.
"Why is it okay to have tabs for runs that use glitches, but not one runs that use save states?"
Because one can be performed on legit hardware and the other can't.
I'm not trying to be glib here but it is literally that simple.
"I feel like not using save states is a personal preference, not a community-wide rule"
It is definitely a community-wide rule and you'll get your ass nailed to the wall by basically every single game on the website if you try.
Also, since the two of you seem genuinely in need of this advice, I'll chuck this one in as a freebie: Turbo controllers are also almost globally banned. That is another one of those borderline global rulings.
A forum post won't work because most people aren't going to read it and it may not apply to every single game, it's just going to apply for about 99% of the game. Most PC games with some time of quicksave/quickload is generally allowed, despite them being functionally identical to savestates? Why? Because normal copies of the game running on normal machines can do it. If you were playing a PC game that couldn't do this and instead took to running it in a VM or something and savestating the VM, you'd then be in violation of the global policy because it's overstepping the boundaries of the game itself. A NES game running on an actual NES cannot savestate, that is the reason it is a banned functionality, because it requires you to modify the game beyond its own parameters.
A very small number of games also allow turbo controllers. These tend to be games with Japanese rulesets because Japan just didn't ban them. It's true for 99% of games, but still, you get exceptions.
there isn't really any way to get around the fact some of this stuff won't be said out loud because it's just assumed universal knowledge across speedrunners and some people just aren't going to figure it out immediately and get called on it. It's fine, that will happen, just take the knowledge and move on.
I didn't say it wasn't, only that I didn't know what the difference was.
Why can't we call a run that uses save states "tool assisted"? I feel like if games like Half-Life are willing to accept runs that are patched together from separate runs to form the perfect run or runs that are performed at a slower speed, then replayed at a faster rate to appear normal, then the use of save states should also be accepted under certain conditions, even if it must be classified as "tool assisted".
To take it a step further, who is to say what "legit hardware" consists of? Should we separate runs performed on consoles from those performed on emulators? At what point does using an emulator become "tool assisted"? (I say this because there are other options you can do with an emulator, such as modify framerates or change the audio / graphic plugins to improve performance or decrease load time, that you cannot do with a console.)
On a side note, your profile picture makes it very hard for me not to imagine your responses spoken by Wednesday Addams (who is most definitely not glib)
"I feel like if games like Half-Life are willing to accept runs that are patched together from separate runs to form the perfect run or runs that are performed at a slower speed, then replayed at a faster rate to appear normal"
They don't on their leaderboards, those are special demonstration videos. TASes. Collaborative efforts from the community to create a perfect demonstration.
"Why can't we call a run that uses save states "tool assisted"?"
Because the logical conclusion of that is doing an actual TAS. And actual TAS work isn't generally competitive, and thus doesn't really go on a leaderboard focused website, it tends to be more collaborative creation.
"To take it a step further, who is to say what "legit hardware" consists of?"
Is it an official release? If so, legit. If not, not. You hit exceptions with this, but the core is uncomplicated.
"Should we separate runs performed on consoles from those performed on emulators?"
Some games do, yes. Depends.
"I say this because there are other options you can do with an emulator, such as modify framerates or change the audio / graphic plugins to improve performance or decrease load time, that you cannot do with a console."
Yes and those would generally be banned.
"At what point does using an emulator become "tool assisted"?"
At the point where you're doing things that are not possible on official hardware.
I'm speaking incredibly broadly, these guidelines will generally serve you well but try to imagine everything I say having an asterisk next to it because there are exceptions to this stuff depending on game/community/console.
You mention "globally banned" and "almost global policy". Where are these policies listed? (I'm not saying they don't exist, but I'm not as fluent with the community rules as I'd like to be).
I'd ask the same about the "Japanese rulesets". Are you referring to an overall ruling or the aggregate rulings made by many individual communities?